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Christian Apologetics A forum to discuss the systematic defense of the Christian belief system with other Christians.

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  #111  
Old 29th May 2012, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Jpeepers
I think Christianity is far from that of what Jesus preached. Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuals so why do most Christians hate homosexuals? Dogma has misguided Christians from the very person they are basing their faith off of.
This would explain the objections of some to the teachings of Paul.
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  #112  
Old 29th May 2012, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by elman View Post
It was Paul who wrote faith without love is worthless. 1 Cor 13:2
And?

You have a problem with that viewpoint?
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  #113  
Old 30th May 2012, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by hiscosmicgoldfish View Post
the thing about Paul's and Luther's justification by faith alone, is that it's risky for the individual, if it isn't true, as it could lead to people being led into a belief that they do not have to continue in faithfulness, or don't have to produce much fruit, and erronious doctrines arise, such as once saved always saved... and there is serious risk that people will be found to be unworthy of the kingdom, without ever realising that they have been taught errors... when they were on the earth.
there's not much anyone can do about it, as that's the way things have developed since the time of Paul and Linus; the first pope of Rome.
Perhaps the Messianic Jews have a chance to reevaluate Paul, as that is a fairly new movement in Christianity... perhaps they will get back to what Christianity started out as, with the Church in Jerusalem run by James, before Paul got the chance to corrupt it all for the rest of us.
As for me, i still regard the bible as the word of God, especially the OT and Genesis. I think that the Hebrew is a more perfect language, and they had to use the Greek for the NT, as that was the best of the alternatives. I believe that the creation account in Genesis is a perfect record of events, and when it comes to the crunch, it can be trusted.
Now i realise that all of Paul's letters are very suspect, even though he might have at times been inspired by the Holy Spirit, but i will be reading his letters from a different perspective from now on.
I'm not so sure that Paul actually subscribed to the faith alone doctrine. The word faith is really just the word persuasion and it appears to me that Paul may have been stating that persuasion is what justifies a man and he may have been more in agreement with James then most people think (when James stated persuasion without works is dead). My problem I have with Paul is on a number of other issues that clearly nullify the teachings of Christ.

I thought I would add a little to what I posted above: for a little more clarification. Paul was a nitpicker and I believe he was only trying to state that faith/persuasion justified a man, but not faith without works: as how can one say they are persuaded in something without acting according to that persuasion?
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Christ's teaching is not generally understood in its true, simple, and direct sense even in these days... One of these causes is the fact that believers and unbelievers alike are firmly persuaded that they have understood Christ's teaching a long time... that it can have no other significance than the one they attribute to it... Even the strongest current of water cannot add a drop to a cup which is already full.

Quoted from Leo Tolstoy's book: "the kingdom of God is within you".
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  #114  
Old 30th May 2012, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 2 know him View Post
Dear DaLeKo, I have 7 kids and I know if I have their hearts I will have their actions. If I try and force my ways or beliefs upon them they will rightly claim they have every right to do what they want to and that I have no right to force myself on them. My children are my equals and it is my job to give them the tools to live independent of me, not to control them. Once my kids can afford to pay for their own food and way they will have the freedom to do what they want to but I don't agree that physical punishment will enable them to be better than what they are. On the contrary, I think that physical abuse will only teach my kids that such behavior is condone-able and is likely to cause them to use physical cohesion upon others when they desire to have another do what they want them to do.

The true author of the bible is not God, but many men which were fallible. That which God condones, and even desires, may or may not be present within the writings of bible but just because the book contains some of God's expressed desires, does not mean that the authors got it all right. And if we cannot challenge what is written in the book: who then determines if the book should be considered right or not?

As for God, he is the only one capable of judging and the children of Israel where only usable by God if they remained faultless otherwise God's judgments were against them also. Look make no mistake, I believe there is a day of accountability coming in which God will judge mankind and I don't think that day will be pleasant. But having said that, you and I are not to judge others: if we have any hope of receiving God's forgiveness for our sins.

As I stated before, the men that judge others, against the commands of Christ, are not exempt from being in subjection to his doctrines, and Paul's doctrines cannot invalidate Jesus' and that is unfortunately what is in question here.

The bible is God breathed, Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" the prophets and apostles were appointed from Jesus Christ himself to spread the good news, (his word) these men are blessed, graced and gifted from God to teach and instruct his gospel.

God does forgive our sins, however one must be truly sorry and not continue in sin as this sends a soul to Hell.

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  #115  
Old 30th May 2012, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by WinBySurrender View Post
And?

You have a problem with that viewpoint?

James also said "Faith without works is dead," as you cannot have one without the other


Jesus teaches us. " If you love me you keep my commandments."

lulu
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  #116  
Old 30th May 2012, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by 2 know him View Post
I'm not so sure that Paul actually subscribed to the faith alone doctrine. The word faith is really just the word persuasion and it appears to me that Paul may have been stating that persuasion is what justifies a man and he may have been more in agreement with James then most people think (when James stated persuasion without works is dead). My problem I have with Paul is on a number of other issues that clearly nullify the teachings of Christ.

I thought I would add a little to what I posted above: for a little more clarification. Paul was a nitpicker and I believe he was only trying to state that faith/persuasion justified a man, but not faith without works: as how can one say they are persuaded in something without acting according to that persuasion?
"Heareth us" << The Apostolic Doctrine

1 John 4:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

2 Peter 3:16-17
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2 Thess 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
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  #117  
Old 30th May 2012, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by WinBySurrender View Post
And?

You have a problem with that viewpoint?
I certainly do not. It is the idea that simple belief in Jesus will obtain us eternal life even if we do not love others that I have a problem with.
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  #118  
Old 30th May 2012, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Werther View Post
I do hope not because there are some truly horrible things in the Bible that are said to be from God,
or are only the nice parts God breathed?
So you doubt the BIble as the word of God? Sorry, but your viewpoint counters with defiance the words of God through the apostle Paul.
2 Timothy 3 (NASB)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

God is sovereign, and as Creator has the right to deal with His creation as He sees fit. We can't understand or explain all of it, but the directives to Israel to kill everything in certain lands and leave nothing behind is an example of the thoroughness of His punishment for sin. God is not just a God of love, but also a God of justice.
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  #119  
Old 30th May 2012, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 2 know him View Post
Is Christianity the practice of following the teachings of Christ? Or the teachings of Paul?
Yes.

We follow Christ. Paul followed Christ, was appointed by Christ, proclaimed Christ, lived for Christ and ultimately died for him.
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  #120  
Old 30th May 2012, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Werther View Post
Indoctrinated way past the point of no return.
No, faithful to God and believing His word. Try it sometime.
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