A few of my latest questions (3 questions to be exact)

truthseeker32 · #1 21st May 2012, 02:29 AM

Hello everyone,

This post is going to address three different topics. Please bear with me.

1. As a few of you have gathered from what I have said in the past, the last few years of studying Christian theology and history have narrowed my prospects to the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox communions. My fiancee is a non-denominational Christian who has less fervor for seeking truth and knowledge than I do. She is a kind, wonderful woman who is comfortable where she is in life. However, I have had a hard time communicating why it is important to worship in the true church of Christ. She is of the opinion that as long as Jesus is a central aspect of a religion it is fine. What would you say to such a person?

2. Why did God create a world with natural disasters and diseases?

3. I know that in the Eastern Orthodox faith one is to regard themselves as the chief of sinners. I respect this view because it helps individuals not to judge each other. However, it seems like it is clearly the case that in some cases an individual can determine that another is a worse person than they are. For instance, a man who runs a sex trafficking ring seems obviously more sinful than the average sinner. Even in this case, would the Orthodox Christian still be obligated to see his or herself as more sinful?

gurneyhalleck1 · #2 21st May 2012, 03:22 AM

Regarding #3, in the Catholic classic "Imitation of Christ," Thomas a Kempis, a French Catholic monk, gives the same advice---to always see oneself as the chief of sinners. When we get to the point that we see ourselves as 'obviously' better than Adolf Hitler, our egos elevate and we stop really walking the path to Christ in a healthy way. Knowledge of our sinfulness, the need for our Saviour, and a non-judgmental (salvation-wise) approach toward others in our walk is essential. When we start to judge ourselves as slightly less sinful than the guy across the street or the pimp or drug addict or prostitute or serial killer, we begin a steady slippery slope into Pharisaic legalism. Recognizing we're fallen like Hitler or the child molestor is a sobering reality. We may not have committed their sins, but what sins do we harbor in our hearts, what desires do we cloak, what hatred do we house inside, and what arrogance we embrace as we start a litmus test for who is good and who is not with levels, etc. I think humility, as you said, is the chief ingredient of becoming Christ-like.

Jesus is about humiliation. He allowed Himself to be beaten, laughed-at, crowned with thorns, scoffed, spat-upon, disrobed, and dragged through the dirt and executed like criminal scum when He was anything but. He demonstrated perfect humility as we should. It's all about copying the Master.

Originally Posted by truthseeker32

Hello everyone,

This post is going to address three different topics. Please bear with me.

1. As a few of you have gathered from what I have said in the past, the last few years of studying Christian theology and history have narrowed my prospects to the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox communions. My fiancee is a non-denominational Christian who has less fervor for seeking truth and knowledge than I do. She is a kind, wonderful woman who is comfortable where she is in life. However, I have had a hard time communicating why it is important to worship in the true church of Christ. She is of the opinion that as long as Jesus is a central aspect of a religion it is fine. What would you say to such a person?

2. Why did God create a world with natural disasters and diseases?

3. I know that in the Eastern Orthodox faith one is to regard themselves as the chief of sinners. I respect this view because it helps individuals not to judge each other. However, it seems like it is clearly the case that in some cases an individual can determine that another is a worse person than they are. For instance, a man who runs a sex trafficking ring seems obviously more sinful than the average sinner. Even in this case, would the Orthodox Christian still be obligated to see his or herself as more sinful?

Silentchapel · #3 21st May 2012, 03:37 AM

Just a couple of quick answers.

1. When someone says that ,,Jesus is only important'', it usually means ,,Jesus removed from His teachings'' and usually goes hand-in-hand with ,,It is only important to be a nice person''. Neither of which Christ taught.

2. It is sin that makes diseases and natural disasters (with which I don't mean that disasters and diseases are punishment for sins - nature in itself grows wild and aggressive to a foreign element in it, that is - sin).
3. A sex trafficker can be safely assumed not to be a practicing Christian, and he continues in his sin. A Christian sins despite knowing that he must not to.

Dorothea · #4 21st May 2012, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by truthseeker32

Hello everyone,

This post is going to address three different topics. Please bear with me.

1. As a few of you have gathered from what I have said in the past, the last few years of studying Christian theology and history have narrowed my prospects to the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox communions. My fiancee is a non-denominational Christian who has less fervor for seeking truth and knowledge than I do. She is a kind, wonderful woman who is comfortable where she is in life. However, I have had a hard time communicating why it is important to worship in the true church of Christ. She is of the opinion that as long as Jesus is a central aspect of a religion it is fine. What would you say to such a person?

My answer would be "Ok." Unless the person is seeking for the fullness of the truth, there is no reason to try to tell them or convince them of this. They are not in the frame of mind to receive it. JMO.

2. Why did God create a world with natural disasters and diseases?

The sin of Adam and Eve brought about the Fall into a fallen world. God did this out of His love and mercy for them so that they may have time to grow spiritually. The natural disasters and diseases are because of the fallen world we live in, caused by the multitude of our sins. We caused it. God did not create that. My understanding.

3. I know that in the Eastern Orthodox faith one is to regard themselves as the chief of sinners. I respect this view because it helps individuals not to judge each other. However, it seems like it is clearly the case that in some cases an individual can determine that another is a worse person than they are. For instance, a man who runs a sex trafficking ring seems obviously more sinful than the average sinner. Even in this case, would the Orthodox Christian still be obligated to see his or herself as more sinful?

More sinful? I'm not sure. Equal to, certainly. believe it or not, we're all capable of doing heinous things. This was kind of explained on the podast regarding prison ministry. It was an excellent talk and conference. Here's a link to my favorite prison ministry broadcast:

Putting Penance Back Into The Penitentiary - Orthodox Christian Prison Ministry Convocation - 2011 - Ancient Faith Radio

gzt · #5 21st May 2012, 10:27 AM

1. In the Gospels, we see the Apostles asking Christ about other people doing works in His name. "And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." Okay, so it's fine to be loosely affiliated with Christ in that way, Jesus Himself seems to approve. But wouldn't you rather be with the apostles than doing your own thing?

2. Tsunami and Theodicy | First Things

3. This is precisely incorrect and is the exact thing we are to avoid. Further, this sentiment is universal in Christianity, not merely confined to Orthodoxy.

RKO · #6 21st May 2012, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by truthseeker32

Hello everyone,

This post is going to address three different topics. Please bear with me.

1. As a few of you have gathered from what I have said in the past, the last few years of studying Christian theology and history have narrowed my prospects to the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox communions. My fiancee is a non-denominational Christian who has less fervor for seeking truth and knowledge than I do. She is a kind, wonderful woman who is comfortable where she is in life. However, I have had a hard time communicating why it is important to worship in the true church of Christ. She is of the opinion that as long as Jesus is a central aspect of a religion it is fine. What would you say to such a person?

2. Why did God create a world with natural disasters and diseases?

3. I know that in the Eastern Orthodox faith one is to regard themselves as the chief of sinners. I respect this view because it helps individuals not to judge each other. However, it seems like it is clearly the case that in some cases an individual can determine that another is a worse person than they are. For instance, a man who runs a sex trafficking ring seems obviously more sinful than the average sinner. Even in this case, would the Orthodox Christian still be obligated to see his or herself as more sinful?

Regarding number 3, I'm a lost former catholic considering the Orthodox Church, but I think I know the answer. And that is, that you 1. Have no idea what is going on between that sex trafficker and God, where he is in terms of his sorrow and repentence, that is. Not to say he is necessarily less than a sinner than you, but only God knows what is going on between them.
And more importantly to us on the outside, why would you waste time determining whether you are more or less of a sinner than anybody else? Wouldn't that time be better spent storming heaven and the Holy Immortal for your own forgiveness for your own sins, no matter how significant they may be?

bottom line: there is nothing to be gained by spending your time and contemplation working out whether you are more or less worthy of Heaven than some other soul. It may make you feel better about yourself for a short while, but what's the good in that? In fact, I submit that not only is there no real value, but that it could potentially slow you down on your own path to Salvation.

So, pray for all sinners, but don't worry about where you rank in the world.

ArmyMatt · #7 21st May 2012, 12:59 PM

1. As a few of you have gathered from what I have said in the past, the last few years of studying Christian theology and history have narrowed my prospects to the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox communions. My fiancee is a non-denominational Christian who has less fervor for seeking truth and knowledge than I do. She is a kind, wonderful woman who is comfortable where she is in life. However, I have had a hard time communicating why it is important to worship in the true church of Christ. She is of the opinion that as long as Jesus is a central aspect of a religion it is fine. What would you say to such a person?

I would invite her to Church, and to talk to the priest and to show her how central Christ is in our worship. I would also point out that the Bible states that we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth, not Spirit or Truth. but mostly I would go with the first point. I have been to many a service, and I have yet to see one as Biblically and Christ centered as the Divine Liturgy.

2. Why did God create a world with natural disasters and diseases?

He didn't. we bring those upon ourselves when we sin. He created a Paradise, gave it to us to have dominion over, and we throw it away. we chose a world with disaster and disease over Eden.

3. I know that in the Eastern Orthodox faith one is to regard themselves as the chief of sinners. I respect this view because it helps individuals not to judge each other. However, it seems like it is clearly the case that in some cases an individual can determine that another is a worse person than they are. For instance, a man who runs a sex trafficking ring seems obviously more sinful than the average sinner. Even in this case, would the Orthodox Christian still be obligated to see his or herself as more sinful?

if sin was just based on the act, then maybe. but Christ judges the heart. St Paul saw himself as the chief of sinners while he was preaching in pagan lands, and combating folks like Gnostics and Judaizers. the reason for this, is because I do not know what is going on in the heart of the sex trafficker. I only know how filthy my own heart is.

truthseeker32 · #8 21st May 2012, 01:47 PM

Thank you for all your responses. I appreciate your input.

I am most intrigued by the responses to number 2, wherein most of you stated that natural disaster and disease are not God's fault, but ours. When this is claimed, does one mean that God created the viruses and bacteria that cause disease, but the fall made humanity subject to these diseases?

I really like what has been said about 3, and am still weighing how I feel about it. I am inclined to think that one can see another as likely a worse human being in extreme cases without developing a "holier than thou" attitude. If someone asked me if I was as bad a person as Pol Pot or Stalin I would say no. If they asked me if I had the potential to be as evil I would say it is uncertain, but unlikely.

truthseeker32 · #9 21st May 2012, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by ArmyMatt

I would invite her to Church, and to talk to the priest and to show her how central Christ is in our worship. I would also point out that the Bible states that we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth, not Spirit or Truth. but mostly I would go with the first point. I have been to many a service, and I have yet to see one as Biblically and Christ centered as the Divine Liturgy.

She has attended DL a couple times, as have a couple friends. Unfortunately the experience doesn't hit home for everyone. I actually have an Anglican friend who became very interested in conversion, but lost interest because of the DL. At least my fiancee saw it as a nice experience.

Protoevangel · #10 21st May 2012, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by truthseeker32

She has attended DL a couple times, as have a couple friends. Unfortunately the experience doesn't hit home for everyone. I actually have an Anglican friend who became very interested in conversion, but lost interest because of the DL. At least my fiancee saw it as a nice experience.

Is there a Western Rite parish in the area? An Anglican should feel right at home there.