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Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion orthodox and unorthodox Christians only - A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. full preterism, unitarianism).

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Unread 17th May 2012, 10:58 AM
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Tsemach Tzedek

Where is it written that Christ Yeshua would rise again the Third Day according to Tanak-Old Testament Scriptures? Search the libraries, search the sermons and the sermonettes, search the video and audio files, search in all the writings known as wisdom, search the internet high and low and see if you cannot find anywhere this question is adequately answered? I found that there are even some who use the following passage to discredit the Scripture. Perhaps not many understand that Paul gets this from Yeshua himself who reveals it in Parables:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And the Third Day wherein Christ arose he states the same to his disciples:

Luke 24:44-46 KJV
44. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46. And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

So then where is it written in the Torah of Moses, the Prophets, or Psalms?

1) In the beginning 'Elohiym created the heaven and the earth.
2) In the beginning 'Elohiym cut down the heaven and the earth.

And both renderings of HSN#1254 bara' above are correct ~

Genesis 1:1 KJV
1. In the beginning God created [HSN#1254 bara'] the heaven and the earth.

Joshua 17:15-18 KJV
15. And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down [HSN#1254 bara'] for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
16. And the children of Joseph said, The hill is not enough for us: and all the Canaanites that dwell in the land of the valley have chariots of iron, both they who are of Bethshean and her towns, and they who are of the valley of Jezreel.
17. And Joshua spake unto the house of Joseph, even to Ephraim and to Manasseh, saying, Thou art a great people, and hast great power: thou shalt not have one lot only:
18. But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down: [HSN#1254 bara'] and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong.

Original Strong's Ref. #1254
Romanized bara'
Pronounced baw-raw'
a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood),
select, feed (as formative processes):
KJV--choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Mark 4:30-32 KJV
30. And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?
31. It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32. But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

John 12:23-24 KJV
23. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Matthew 13:31-32 KJV
31. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32. Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Isaiah 45:6-8 (HSN#1254 bara' rendered as ''cut down'')
6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else.
7. I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I, YHWH, do all these things.
8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down tsedek-righteousness: let the earth open up, and let it bring forth the fruits of Yesha! and let tsdaqah-righteousness tsamach-sprout-shoots united; I YHWH did cut him down.

Isaiah 45:11-13 (HSN#1254 bara' rendered as ''cut down'')
11. Thus saith YHWH, the Holy One of Yisra'el and his Maker, Of things to come inquire ye concerning my sons? and concerning the work of my hands command ye me?
12. I have made the earth, and a man upon it cut down: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13. I raised him up in tsdaqah-righteousness, and all his ways are straight: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith YHWH Tsabaoth.

Zechariah 3:8-9 KJV
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch [Tsemach].
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zechariah 6:12 KJV
12. And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; [Tsemach] and he shall tsamach-grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:

Enoch the prophet and scribe-notary speaks of the same Tsemach Tsdaqah ~

Enoch and The Book of Giants

Enoch 10:7-16
7. And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, and announce his crime to Semjz and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness.
8. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgment and of their consummation, till the judgment that is for ever and ever is consummated.
9. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever.
10. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations.
11. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the offspring of the Watchers, for they have tyrannized over mankind.
12. Let every oppressor perish from the face of the earth;
13. Let every evil work be destroyed;
14. Let the plant of righteousness and of rectitude appear, and its produce become a blessing; Righteousness and rectitude shall be for ever planted with delight.
15. And then shall all the saints give thanks, and live until they have begotten a thousand children, while the whole period of their youth, and their Sabbaths shall be completed in peace. In those days all the earth-soil shall be cultivated in righteousness; it shall be wholly planted with trees, and filled with benediction; every tree of delight shall be planted in it.
16. In it shall vines be planted; and the vine which shall be planted in it shall yield fruit to satiety; every seed, which shall be sown in it, shall produce for one measure a thousand; and one measure of olives shall produce ten presses of oil.



Genesis 1:11-13 KJV
11. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13. And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Luke 24:45-46 KJV
45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46. And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Thus was the Lamb slain by oath before the foundation of the Kosmos order ~
For not until the fourth day were the sun, moon, stars, and lights commanded

Yea or Nay?

Last edited by daq; 17th May 2012 at 11:39 AM.
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Unread 18th May 2012, 06:20 AM
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Exodus 3:1-5
1. Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of ha-'Elohiym, even to Horeb.
2. And the Mal'ak of YHWH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a cnah-bush: and he looked, and, behold, the cnah-bush burned with fire, and the cnah-bush was not consumed.
3. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why ha-cnah-bush is not burnt.
4. And when YHWH saw that he turned aside to see, called unto him 'Elohiym out of the midst of ha-cnah-bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

Exodus 25:31-40
31. And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of miqshah-hammered-beaten workmanship shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.
32. And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side:
33. Three bowls made like unto almonds, with a knop and a flower in one branch; and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch, with a knop and a flower: so in the six branches that come out of the candlestick.
34. And in the candlestick shall be four bowls made like unto almonds, with their knops and their flowers.
35. And there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the candlestick.
36. Their knops and their branches shall be of the same: all it shall be one miqshah-hammered-beaten workmanship of pure gold.
37. And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it.
38. And the tongs thereof, and the snuffdishes thereof, shall be of pure gold.
39. Of a talent of pure gold shall he make it, with all these vessels.
40. And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

IS THE PATTERN OF THE MENORAH THE BURNING BUSH OF HOREB?

Numbers 8:1-4
1. And YHWH spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto Aaron and say unto him, When thou lightest the lamps, the seven lamps shall give light over against the candlestick.
3. And Aaron did so; he lighted the lamps thereof over against the candlestick, as YHWH commanded Moses.
4. And this workmanship of the candlestick was of miqshah-hammered-beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was miqshah-hammered-beaten workmanship: according unto the pattern which YHWH had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.

IF SO then the pattern is after the appearance of the Mal'ak-Messenger of YHWH ~

Exodus 3:2
2. And the Mal'ak of YHWH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a cnah-bush: and he looked, and, behold, the cnah-bush burned with fire, and the cnah-bush was not consumed.

Daniel 10:5-6 KJV
5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

Revelation 1:12-18 KJV
12. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Last edited by daq; 28th February 2013 at 09:16 PM.
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Unread 23rd May 2012, 12:50 AM
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Where can it be proven from the Scripture that Michael the Arch-Messenger is a created being? Nowhere is Michael even called a mal'ak or ''messenger'' in the Hebrew although even John the Baptist is called such. The reason this is critical is because according to the Scripture Michael is the Sar- sariym, (Prince of princes) the Great Prince, the Great Commander, the Chief and the Head over the children of the people of Daniel. Yet so much of modern Christian teachings simply assumes that Michael was created even though there is absolutely no evidence given in the Scripture whatsoever. Daniel the prophet was of the tribe of Judah and Michael is stated to be the Great Prince over the children of the people of Daniel. If then the Head of Judah is Michael why would the Head of the body of the Great Congregation-Ekklesia not be the same Head? Yet from Revelation Ch.12 we clearly see that Michael has not been replaced and continues to serve in his priestly function as the Great Warrior Prince over the people of YHWH which keep the commandments and have the testimony of Yeshua. It becomes increasingly clear that Michael is Yeshua himself; and if this be true then he absolutely was NOT created. We must also remember that HSN#4397 mal'ak (Hebrew) means simply ''a messenger'' in many different applications including prophets, shepherds, and even pastors. The very same is true of the Greek word mostly translated as ''angels'' (GSN#0032 aggelos or angelos).

Hosea 1:10-11 KJV
10. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.


1) The Head of every man is Christ.
2) The Head of Christ is the Father God.
3) Which one then is Michael? seeing how he continues in Revelation 12 ??

1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV
3. But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 1:18-23 KJV
18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Ephesians 4:15-16 KJV
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Colossians 1:18 KJV
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


The same Head is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah:
That Great Prince who stands watch over the people of Daniel ~

Daniel 1:6-7 KJV
6. Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah:
7. Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel the name of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego.

Daniel 10:21 YGB (Young's Literal Bible)
21. but I declare to thee that which is noted down in the Writing of Truth, and there is not one strengthening himself with me, concerning these, except Michael your head [HSN#8269 sar].

Daniel 10:21 KJV
21. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince [HSN#8269 sar].


Original Strong's Ref. #8269
Romanized sar
Pronounced sar
from HSN8323; a head person (of any rank or class):
KJV--captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ([-task-])master, prince(-ipal), ruler, steward.

Daniel 12:1 YGB (Young's Literal Bible)
1. 'And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, [HSN#8269 sar] who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book.

Daniel 12:1 KJV
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince [HSN#8269 sar] which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:1 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
1. Uwba`et hahiy', ya`mod Miyka'el, ha-sar ha-gad owl, ha`omed `al- bney `ameka. Whaytah `et tsarah, 'sherlo'- nihytah mihyowt gowy, `ad ha`et hahiy'. Uwba`ethahiy', yimaleT `amka -- kal- hanimtsa' katuwb baceper.


Michael is ha-Sar ha-Gadol ~
The Great Prince, Commander, and Head of my people:

Daniel 8:10-11a
10. And it waxed great, even to the tsaba'-host of heaven; and it cast down of the tsaba'-host and of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.
11a. Even unto the Sar- ha-tsaba' he magnified

Daniel 8:25
25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Sar-Prince of sariym-princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Luke 3:16 KJV
16. John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joshua 5:13-15
13. And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14. And he said, Nay; but as Sar- tsaba'- YHWH am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith 'Adoniy unto his servant?
15. And said the Sar- tsaba'- YHWH unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.


And this One is called an 'Adam though he commands the messengers ~

Daniel 10:16-18 KJV
16. And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men [HSN#120 'adam] touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
17. For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
18. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, [HSN#120 'adam] and he strengthened me,

Daniel 8:16 KJV
16. And I heard a man's [HSN#120 'adam] voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.


And who is the 'iysh-man-'ADAM between the banks and upon the Rivers?
The same One is the Man clothed in linen who swears by Him that lives Eternal ~

Daniel 12:5-7 KJV
5. Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


The same One raises both hands blessing his disciples as he is received up into a cloud:

Luke 24:50-51 KJV
50. And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51. And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

Acts 1:9 KJV
9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


The same One has a Rainbow upon his Head.
The Sign of the Covenant to Noah and all flesh ~

Revelation 10:1-3
1. And I saw another mighty messenger come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2. And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
3. And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.


And when He roars the Seven Thunders utter their voices
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Unread 24th May 2012, 01:17 AM
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Most will agree that according to the Scripture Yeshua fulfills all of the necessary sacrificial offerings, according to the Law, which were necessary for the remission of our sins. This he accomplished in the single offering of his own self, pouring out his own soul unto death, (Isaiah 53:12) and by the giving of his body and flesh upon the cross, thus fulfilling the requirements of the commandments regarding animal sacrifices which animals could never have given true remission of sins in the first place but were a shadow of the goodness to come:

Hebrews 10:4-18
4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Yeshua Christou once for all.
11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13. From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


If then, in the offering of himself, Yeshua fulfills all of the necessary sacrifices concerning our sanctification, the remission of sins, and ultimate redemption; how then is it possible that Yeshua fulfills the sacrificial Seven Lambs commanded in Torah:

Numbers 28:11 KJV
11. And in the beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the Lord; two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot;


In the beginning of every month: Seven Lambs of the first year without spot ~

Numbers 28:16-19 KJV
16. And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the Lord.
17. And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
18. In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:
19. But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for a burnt offering unto the Lord; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish:


In the first day of Unleavened: Seven Lambs of the first year without blemish ~

Numbers 28:26-27 KJV
26. Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the Lord, after your weeks be out, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work:
27. But ye shall offer the burnt offering for a sweet savour unto the Lord; two young bullocks, one ram, seven lambs of the first year;


In the day of First Fruits Shavout-Pentecost: Seven Lambs of the first year ~

Numbers 29:1-2 KJV
1. And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.
2. And ye shall offer a burnt offering for a sweet savour unto the Lord; one young bullock, one ram, and seven lambs of the first year without blemish:


In Rosh Hashanah-Trumpets: Seven Lambs of the first year without blemish ~

Numbers 29:7-8 KJV
7. And ye shall have on the tenth day of this seventh month an holy convocation; and ye shall afflict your souls: ye shall not do any work therein:
8. But ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the Lord for a sweet savour; one young bullock, one ram, and seven lambs of the first year; they shall be unto you without blemish:


In Yom Kippur-Atonements: Seven Lambs of the first year without blemish!
And WHERE is the first place in Torah the sacrificial Seven Lambs are commanded?

First Fruits - Shavout - Pentecost - Leviticus 23 ~

Leviticus 23:15-18 KJV
15. And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16. Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord.
17. Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord.
18. And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the Lord, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the Lord.


Once upon an anti-time, in a place outside of time, in old time, and from `owlam before time, there IS the Great King; and the Great King IS perfect. And the Great King has Seven Sons which also are perfect because the Great King himself IS perfect. The Seven Sons are therefore One with and in their Father, and the Seven Sons are One with and in each other each his brother; and Michael is the Commander. If therefore you sacrifice the One you then have sacrificed the Seven

Zechariah 3:8-9 KJV
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.


Upon the One Stone are Seven Eyes ~

Revelation 1:16-20 KJV
16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
19. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
20. The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels [aggelos-messengers] of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


The Seven Stars are the Seven Spirits of the Theou ~

Revelation 3:1 KJV
1. And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and-even the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.


The Seven Lamps before the Throne are the Seven Spirits of the Theou ~

Revelation 4:5 KJV
5. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.


Seven Stars - Seven Horns - Seven Eyes - Seven Spirits of the Theou ~

Revelation 5:6 KJV
6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


And the Seven Eyes are the Seven Lamps of Fire of the Menorah:
THE SEVEN SPIRITS SENT FORTH INTO ALL THE EARTH
And the Arche-messenger MIYKA'EL is in the MIDST ~

ENOCH XX
1. And these are the names of the holy mal'akiym who watch.
2. Uriel, one-united of the holy mal'akiym; over the world and over Tartarus.
3. Raphael, one-united of the holy mal'akiym; over the spirits of men.
4. Raguel, one-united of the holy mal'akiym; taking vengeance on the world of luminaries.
5. Michael, one-united of the holy mal'akiym; over the virtue of men, commands nations.
6. Saraql, one-united of the holy mal'akiym, over the spirits of the sons of men transgressing.
7. Gabriel, one-united of the holy mal'akiym; over Ikisat, over Paradise, and over the Cherubim.
8. Remiel, one-united of the holy mal'akiym; whom God set over those who rise.




Amos 5:7-8
7. Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,
8. Seek him that maketh the Seven Stars [HSN#3598 Kiymah] and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: YHWH is his name:


Original Strong's Ref. #3598
Romanized Kiymah
Pronounced kee-maw'
from the same as HSN3558; a cluster of stars, i.e. the Pleiades:
KJV--Pleiades, seven stars.

YHWH 'Elohiym made the Seven Stars of the Pleiades and WHY? Because that cluster of Seven Stars represent his Living Word who is the Son Yeshua. YHWH spoke (Word) and the Seven Stars constellation came into being THROUGH the Son who is the Word. Amos speaks only of the physical stars being created and NOT the Son whom the Seven Stars represent.

Genesis 1:14-15 KJV
14. And God said, [spoken Word] Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15. And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

Job 38:3-7
3. Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6. Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7. When sounded out the morning stars united, [yachad] and shouted for joy all the Sons of 'Elohiym?

Revelation 2:26-29
26. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28. And I will give him the Morning Star.
29. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


And to the one that overcomes Yeshua gives himself: LIGHT and LIFE ~

Revelation 22:16
16. I Yeshua have sent my messenger to testify unto you these things in the ekklesiais-congregations. I am the Riza-Root and the Genos of David, the Lampros-Bright and Morning Star.
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John 3:14-15
14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Numbers 21:6-9
6. And sent YHWH amongst the people ha-nachashiym-serpents ha-saraphiym-fiery, [HSN#8314 saraph] and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against YHWH, and against thee; pray unto YHWH, that he take away ha-nachash-serpent from us! And Moses prayed for the people.
8. And said YHWH unto Moses, Make thee a fiery-saraph, [HSN#8314 saraph] and set it upon a sign-pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a sign-pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.


Original Strong's Ref. #8314
Romanized saraph
Pronounced saw-rawf'
from HSN8313; burning, i.e. (figuratively) poisonous (serpent);
specifically, a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color):
KJV--fiery (serpent), seraph.

Isaiah 6:1-10
1. In the year that king Uzziah died I saw the 'Adonay sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2. Seraphiym [HSN#8314 saraph] stood from above for him: Six wings, six wings to the one! with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3. And cried this to that, and said; Holy, holy, holy, YHWH Tsabaoth! The whole earth is full of his glory!
4. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, YHWH Tsabaoth!
6. Then flew to me one of the Seraphiym, [HSN#8314 saraph] and in his hand a burning coal with tongs, taken from upon the altar:
7. And he touched it upon my mouth, and said, Behold, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin atoned-covered-purged [HSN#3722 kaphar].
8. And I heard the voice of 'Adonay, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

John 12:36-41
36. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Yeshua, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38. That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39. Therefore they could not believe, because again said Isaiah:
40. He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41. These things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake concerning him.

John 17:3-5
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true Theon, and him whom thou didst send, Yeshua Christon.
4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
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The mal'ak-messenger 'iysh-man Gabriy'el ~

Daniel 8:16-18 KJV
16. And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18. Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

Daniel 9:21 KJV
21. Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man [HSN#376 'iysh] Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Daniel 10:5-9 KJV
5. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man [HSN#376 'iysh] clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
6. His body also was like the Beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7. And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
8. Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

This one-'echad-united of the holy mal'akiym is surnamed Gabriy'el ~
And the Word of YHWH 'Elohiym dwells IN him:

Daniel 10:20-21 KJV
20. Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.


Daniel 10:21 YGB (Young's Literal Bible)
21. but I declare to thee that which is noted down in the Writing of Truth, and there is not one strengthening himself with me, concerning these, except Michael your head.

The mal'ak-messenger John Elias ha-Qowre' ~

Matthew 13:43 KJV
43. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Revelation 1:13-18 KJV
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18. I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

This one-'echad-united of the holy mal'akiym is surnamed John Elias ha-Qowre' ~
And the Word of YHWH 'Elohiym dwells IN him:

And the Father dwells IN his Word
And the Word dwells IN his Father
And Miyka'el ha-Sar ha-Gadol is the Word of YHWH 'Elohiym ~

John 1:14
14. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us; and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
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This whole Thread is "SO RICH" and "SO DRENCHED" In The Living Waters, it's almost more than I can Comprehend. And I'm sure for most it will be.

But for those who have ears, let them hear what The Spirit of Truth is Unveiling.
All Praise, Honor, and Glory, be to The One who sits on The Throne.

The Lord Bless you and Keep you, in The Presence of His Glory, my Dear Brother
In Christ
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Peace-Shalom 2KnowHim!
Where to start? If there is anything feel free to ask and if I know it, (or think that I do) then I will share from the Word. Ultimately most all of this derives from Torah: for example the Law states that the atonement sprinkling of the blood at Yom Kippur is to be sprinkled seven times with the Finger of the Priest for each separate atonement ceremony, (each ceremony is ''about the space of half an hour''). We also know that Yeshua is now the new Mediator of the Covenant, our High Priest by the order of Melchizedek who lives evermore to make intercession on the part of his brethren the saints, and that he also is the right arm of strength and Salvation of YHWH 'Elohiym the only Savior.

Luke 11:20
20. But if I in the Finger of Theou cast out devils, no doubt has come upon you the kingdom of the Theou!

Leviticus 16:12-13
12. And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
13. And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:

Revelation 8:3-4 [The Vail is gone]
3. And an allos-different messenger came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up from the hand of the messenger before the Theou.

Leviticus 16:14-16
14. And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
16. And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

The Seven Fingers are One ~

Revelation 15:1-8
1. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven messengers having the seven last strokes; for in them is filled up the thumos-passion-fury of the Theou.
2. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of the Theou.
3. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of the Theou, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord the Theos Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of nations!
4. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5. And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: [the same is the tabernacle of the mow`ed-meeting-place-congregation]
6. And the seven messengers came out of the temple, having the seven strokes, arrayed with precious stone, pure and bright, and girt about their breasts with golden girdles.
7. And one of the four living creatures gave unto the seven messengers seven golden bowls full of the thumos-passion-fury of the Theou, who liveth for ever and ever.
8. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of the Theou, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven strokes of the seven messengers were fulfilled.

Leviticus 16:17
17. And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

Whether in the body, or whether out of the body, I know not; YHWH knoweth! But I do know that seven pa`am-strokes passed over me; and no more a prophet am I, but a tiller of the soil am I, for the Son of Man purchased me from my youth!
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Thank you so much for these Beautiful words of Life.

How anyone cannot see, by this that The Book of Revelation is an inward working, of the
old and the new, together as ONE, first "in" our Lord, and now "within" His people, still baffles me. Each one of us, have our appointed time by The Father, for All of these things to be made manifest.

This is Life, This is OUR Redemption, and is The working of our Lord in us, through us, and to us. It isn't about a future time or Advent, worldwide, per-say, But an individual manifestation and cleansing, a killing and a making alive, Within us.

Until we All go through this, the man of sin, the son of perishing, the old man still lives, even though he was wounded, nevertheless he lives in most today, there will be divisions, with us.

I have always wondered about the "space of an half hour" thing. Thank you for bringing that out. Could this be when, we are experiencing, "within ourselves" no answers? No word, no directions from the Lord when we are needing it so desperately? And what we don't realize is there is a Ceremony going on in The heavens on our behalf? And this is when our Saviour is interceding on our behalf? And this is a time to be still, and wait, and see The Glory of The Lord?
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Unread 22nd June 2012, 02:49 PM
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Whether in the body, or whether out of the body, I know not; YHWH knoweth! But I do know that seven pa`am-strokes passed over me; and no more a prophet am I, but a tiller of the soil am I, for the Son of Man purchased me from my youth! (End Quote).

Agreed, until this takes place with each of us, there is nothing but confusion, and you cannot till, or plant, in Chaos. There can be none of this until you "KNOW" that you are bought with a price, and you are not your own.
Ahh...That we could All come to the place where we can say with Paul, it is no longer I who live, but Christ in me.

This is a third Heaven Level, of understanding, And it is Glorious, "NO MAN" NO Flesh is in
This Place.
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