Amendment Protects Religious Liberty of Military Members

KatherineS · #21 18th May 2012, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by JimR-OCDS

Not yet,

Thank you, Jim. You've answered my question.

Fantine · #22 18th May 2012, 07:12 PM

The problem preachers need to be preaching about isn't that gay people want to get married---it's that straight people don't.

This is what the defenders of marriage need to do--to promote marriage among young heterosexual couples, particularly if they have children.

It's easy to be negative and criticize and say the problem is that gay people want to get married.

Hey, maybe they'll lead the way!

We need stable, loving homes for our children, good male and female role models.

Not some negative preacher bypassing real solutions to the real problem to criticize the lifestyles of a few.

JimR-OCDS · #23 18th May 2012, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Fantine

The problem preachers need to be preaching about isn't that gay people want to get married---it's that straight people don't.

This is what the defenders of marriage need to do--to promote marriage among young heterosexual couples, particularly if they have children.

It's easy to be negative and criticize and say the problem is that gay people want to get married.

Hey, maybe they'll lead the way!

We need stable, loving homes for our children, good male and female role models.

Not some negative preacher bypassing real solutions to the real problem to criticize the lifestyles of a few.

Well it isn't like young heterosexuals are sitting in the pews waiting the hear the news that marriage is the way.

Young people aren't getting married in large numbers, they are however, cohabitation.

I never dreamed I would see the day that children would attend their own parents wedding. Yet, I know two people where this is exactly what happened. They had children together, but never decided to get married, until a tax adviser convinced them that filing taxes as a married couple was a benefit.

Jim

AMDG · #24 18th May 2012, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Fantine

The problem preachers need to be preaching about isn't that gay people want to get married---it's that straight people don't.

This is what the defenders of marriage need to do--to promote marriage among young heterosexual couples, particularly if they have children.

It's not just the preachers. It's the culture--the tv shows--the movies--what's told kids in school.

I remember that in the 50s children were allowed to be innocent children--they were allowed to play and not be dressed up like teens. And *every* parent held authority for the child so the child needed to behave all the time. (And of course, mothers stayed home to raise their children and at least be present for them so that they didn't get into trouble.) I remember in the 60s that tv shows would very explicitly tell viewers that marriage was more than "living together" or "having a piece of paper". And of course there were certain restrictions on what was shown on TV (for instance, there was actually a time considered the "family hour" were certain things were not aired and even married couples weren't shown in the same bed together) Now little children get to watch soft porn any time they choose because that's ALL that's available besides blood and guts shows. (I think the show "All in the Family" started our decline into the sewer.) Oh and I remember the Legion of Decency pledge that was given *every* year in Mass. We all pledged not to attend certain indecent movies and to only attend age appropriate ones (and ones that had Catholic values. A list of the proper movies was posted on the Church door.

Now it's everyone for himself and we wonder why things have gone so terribly wrong. Children need guidance and it can't come in the form of a ten minute homily once in a blue moon at Mass.

Fantine · #25 18th May 2012, 11:25 PM

You're right, Jim, young people are not sitting in the pews waiting for a homily to tell them to get married.

And so it obviously has to start way before that time. And after that time. And not only from churches--from schools, families, government.

I feel pretty certain that one reason why young mothers don't get married is that they can get WIC and food stamps and subsidies if they aren't married, and zilch if they are.

And if they are cohabitating, they're still together--but with fewer financial worries.

Maybe churches need to provide mentor couples for young couples (whether they are married or not). If they are cohabitating, the purpose of the mentor couple isn't to tell them, "You should be married." The purpose of the mentor couple is to give them communication skills, problem solving skills, etc.

AMDG · #26 19th May 2012, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Fantine

I feel pretty certain that one reason why young mothers don't get married is that they can get WIC and food stamps and subsidies if they aren't married, and zilch if they are.

You sure don't get around very much. I know many married folks that get WIC, food stamps, and other subsidies. Being military almost guarantees it, but I personally know quite a few civilians on WIC, food stamps, and other subsidies too. (Even personally know some who additionally "make the rounds" getting donations and charity from different churches in their areas.)

The young don't marry because that's what they have been taught--it's not necessary. And they look at the film stars that they admire who are just cohabitating and they want to be just like them (of course they don't realize that children cost money and the movie stars have money while the young don't.) The young don't marry because the family has been systematically destroyed over the years.

isshinwhat · #27 19th May 2012, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by KatherineS

Chaplains do have military rank.

Did you not read what I wrote, or did I not make myself clear?

And the criticism of the Archbishop's letter is that it suggested members of the military should take the law into their own hands. The Archbishop apologized for the reference and the military withdrew the obejction. Hardly the basis for a crusade.

The USA is not a banana republic. The army does not act outside the law.

The Archbishop agreed to allow the phrase, "We cannot—we will not—comply with this unjust law," to not be read from the pulpit. He did not apologize, the Army admitted it had made a mistake. In fact, the Military Archdiocese issued a statement saying:

Archbishop Broglio and the Archdiocese stand firm in the belief, based on legal precedent, that such a directive from the Army constituted a violation of his Constitutionally-protected right of free speech and the free exercise of religion, as well as those same rights of all military chaplains and their congregants.

Following a discussion between Archbishop Broglio and the Secretary of the Army, The Honorable John McHugh, it was agreed that it was a mistake to stop the reading of the Archbishop's letter. Additionally, the line: "We cannot-we will not-comply with this unjust law" was removed by Archbishop Broglio at the suggestion of Secretary McHugh over the concern that it could potentially be misunderstood as a call to civil disobedience.

isshinwhat · #28 19th May 2012, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by KatherineS

Jim,

Can you give some real world examples of violation of religious conscience concerning religious liberty and marriage in the military? There have been none that I am aware of and those stokign this fire are vague about their complaints.

"Archbishop Broglio and the Archdiocese stand firm in the belief, based on legal precedent, that such a directive from the Army constituted a violation of his Constitutionally-protected right of free speech and the free exercise of religion, as well as those same rights of all military chaplains and the congregants."

A chaplain can preach as he wishes so long as he does not call for for a military putsch or other illegal rebellion. Any member of the military can have his own opinions as to what is sin and what is virtue. No chaplain can be made to perform any rite or ritual he does not wish to.

So you believe that a chaplain has the right to advise a homosexual man or woman against continuing his/her immoral relationship during a counseling session? Could that chaplain refuse to offer counsel rather than gloss over the immoral nature of the relationship?

isshinwhat · #29 19th May 2012, 11:35 PM

Don't you see a disconnect? Maybe the Archbishop spends too much time in an ivory tower. How much of an impact will it make to soldiers worried about bombs, getting shot at, being far from family, with few creature comforts, trying to fulfill their mission while keeping their sanity to get a letter from a bishop saying, "What you should REALLY be worrying about is the HHS mandate."

It wasn't just read in war zones, Fantine. Besides that, I believe his audience understands the importance of principle and protection of freedom...

It is imperative that I call to your attention an alarming and serious matter that negatively impacts the Church in the United States directly, and that strikes at the fundamental right to religious liberty for all citizens of any faith. The federal government, which claims to be “of, by, and for the people,” has just dealt a heavy blow to almost a quarter of those people—the Catholic population—and to the millions more who are served by the Catholic faithful. It is a blow to a freedom that you have fought to defend and for which you have seen your buddies fall in battle.

KatherineS · #30 20th May 2012, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by isshinwhat

So you believe that a chaplain has the right to advise a homosexual man or woman against continuing his/her immoral relationship during a counseling session?

Yes. There has never been an indicident that indicated he or she could not