|Fundamentalist Christians The forum for Christian fundamentalists. |
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3rd June 2012, 09:06 PM
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ἐγγηϊσταί ἔριν (Resident Trouble Maker)
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Join Date: 20th July 2005
Location: Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
Reps: 563,582,505,125,767,104 (power: 563,582,505,125,792)
John Leyland Dagg wrote the first "Systematic Theology: in Baptist history.
And in it he writes:
Founders Ministries | DAGG BK. 7 CHAPTER III
Paul has taught us that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin; that these offerings were only figures of things to come; and that the only effectual removal of sin is by the blood of Christ. Baptism under the gospel, is as truly a figure, as the sacrifices were under the law. In the ceremonies instituted by Moses, the death of Christ was prefigured by the death of the slaughtered victims; and in the gospel ceremony, the burial and resurrection of Christ are figured forth in the ordinance of baptism: and in both cases, the remission connected with the ceremony is merely figurative. Our sins are washed away in baptism, in the same sense in which we eat the body and brink the blood of Christ, in the ordinance of the Lord's supper. Baptism and the Lord's supper are duties to be performed under the gospel dispensation; as the various ceremonies instituted by Moses, were duties under the former dispensation; but the figures ought not, in either case, to be confounded with the things which they represent. In a figure, baptism washes away sin: in reality, "The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin." We must be careful not to rely on the figure, instead of the reality which it represents.
My sins were washed clean, purged, remissed by the blood of Jesus Christ, not some water in a lake, pond, or stream.
And as J.L. Dagg points out, I believe the person is relying on the figure and not the reality.
Believer's baptism is an ordinance performed after a person professes Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and is symbolic of the cleansing
or remission of their sins. In the Baptist denomination, baptism plays no role in salvation
; it is rather an outward expression of the inward change that has already taken place.
Yet he did say:
God chooses to complete salvation when baptism takes place
This goes against all Baptist and Fundamentalists beliefs.
Faith is a vital principle. "If it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17,18). Two things are required of the believer, immediately upon his profession of faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, namely, verbal confession and water baptism. "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:10. See also Psalm 107:2; Matthew 10:32,33; Romans 10:9; 1 John 4:15, etc.) "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). The believer is not saved because he is baptized; but, baptized because he is saved. We are saved through faith alone, but not the faith that is alone, because "Faith without works is dead, being alone." Water baptism is a divinely ordained ordinance whereby the believer witnesses to the world that he died with Christ, and is risen together with Him," an habitation of God through the Spirit. (See Matthew 28:19,20; Acts 2:38,41; 8:12,13,16,36,38; 9:18; 10:47,48; 16:15,33; 19:5; 22:15,16; Romans 6:3,4; Colossians 2:12; 1 Peter 3:21; 1 John 2:3; 3:22).
The Fundamentals: A Testimony to the Truth, Book III, Theology, Chapter 12, The Doctrines that Must be Emphasized in Successful Evangelism, By Evangelist L.W. Munhall, M.A., D.D
Till all are one.
"When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
3rd June 2012, 09:25 PM
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Join Date: 7th November 2011
Reps: 1,118,970,144,178,822,144 (power: 1,118,970,144,178,825)
| | Originally Posted by DeaconDean
Well thanks for that reasoned and erudite response to the point I was making.
Your saying that once you bow, repent of your sins, confess them, believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God, that is not enough to provide remissioin of sins.
No, I am not saying that. What I'm saying is that's what's taught in the Word of God.
Again, as a Baptist, you would believe this statement to be untrue.
Which I'm beginning to doubt.
I am a Christian before I am a baptist. And these very ideas that I'm espousing I got from a professor at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY.
I see no where where it states that "God chooses to complete salvation when baptism takes place."
If you're looking for it in some baptist statement of faith your probably won't find it. If you look in Scripture, however, it'll be right in front of your face.
Sorry but your wrong, and to advocate such a position here in the Fundamentalist area is against what Fundamentalists have taught and believed since the mid 1910's.
I aim for the first-century faith, not the 20th century faith. A lot can change in 2000 years. Surely the earliest believers were the ones closest to the truth.
Put me in remembrance; let us argue together; set forth your case, that you may be proved right. (Isaiah 43:26)
3rd June 2012, 10:43 PM
Re: Salvation points
Doctrine should be based on the whole word of God and not just a few passages taken in isolation and certainly not just by expositions or interpretations of theologians.
On the issue of Salvation after Baptism: The Bible does not teach that.
Salvation means being saved from eternal death.
Salvation culminates with the change from flesh to spirit for Christians. 1Cor15:51-54,
While salvation is a gift to us it is conditional.
Salvation is a process-after repentance, baptism and receiving of the Holy spirit we are just beginning our conversion by studying the word of God and works and building faith with the help of the H.S.
After baptism we are only the spirit-begotten children of God the Father.
Our Spiritual birth or " born again " is yet to occur at the Resurrection 1Cor15.
In Matt:24:13 Jesus shows overcoming temptation will lead to salvation:
" But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"-future tense.unto the end not after baptism.
Again," he who overcomes and keeps my works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations." Rev2:26
Salvation is our award at the end of our struggle against the forces of this world.
It doesn't come after baptism-it comes, if we overcome the pull of the carnal mind, after our death upon the resurrection of the saints.
That's the way I see it. I know people walk around saying " I'm saved, I'm saved" but according to scripture salvation is something we can lose even during the conversion process.
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