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  #11  
Unread 14th May 2012, 03:33 PM
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Love the tithes MUST be brought to the priest in the JERUSALEM temple....

Originally Posted by Qnts2 View Post
For non-Messianic Judaism, Judaism does not tithe.

The Tithe was to be brought to the Temple, and mostly for the Priests. Since there is no Temple, and with no Temple, no working Priests, there is also no tithe at this time.

On the other side, Judaism does believe very strongly in giving charity. And in Judaism, charity is compared to helping to 'repair the world'.
Originally Posted by Qnts2 View Post
I was answering for Rabbinic/Diaspora Judaism, not Messianic Judaism.

Tithing is not done in Rabbinic Judaism because of the lack of the Temple and active Priesthood.

Just for interest, if anyone is interested. At the Shabbat synagogue service, there are no baskets passed, as business is not to be conducted on the Sabbath, and money is not to be carried. So, Judaism does not pass the baskets for collections. And tithing is not done as that was for the Priests and Temple system only.
so tithing the 3 tithes STOPPED..... when the JERUSALEM temple was destroyed?....
The Romans Destroy the Temple at Jerusalem, 70 AD
Second Temple - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

because the TORAH says that the 3 tithes could ONLY be brought to the temple?.... and be administered/received by the priests?....

trying to find that specific command.... does anyone have the reference?.....


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Unread 14th May 2012, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Qnts2 View Post
Just for interest, if anyone is interested. At the Shabbat synagogue service, there are no baskets passed, as business is not to be conducted on the Sabbath, and money is not to be carried. So, Judaism does not pass the baskets for collections. .
One of the many possible reasons that Christ was angry at those in the temple he often drove out due to how they were selling there..

And tithing is not done as that was for the Priests and Temple system only.
Yep...
  • 2nd Tithe - Deut 14:22-26, 12:5-7,17-18; which discuss the
    eating of the tithe at the feast(s) every year.
  • 3rd Tithe - Deut 14:27-29, 26:12-14; which call for the
    feeding of the Levite, stranger, fatherless
    and widow; apparently every three years.
    Also Amos 4:4 is usually translated to
    confirm a tithe after 3 years.
Technically, in the word, there is no examples of either
the so called 'second tithe' or the 'third tithe' as they were all considered as apart of the same tithe which was divided up equally and set apart for differing purposes...similar to having multiple bank accounts for multiple purposes and yet having it all under the grand purpose of finance.

But to truly utilize the tithe system as it was intended in all legal aspects, you'd always need to have priests in place.
Nehemiah 10:33
34 “We—the priests, the Levites and the people—have cast lots to determine when each of our families is to bring to the house of our God at set times each year a contribution of wood to burn on the altar of the Lord our God, as it is written in the Law.

35 “We also assume responsibility for bringing to the house of the Lord each year the firstfruits of our crops and of every fruit tree.
36 “As it is also written in the Law, we will bring the firstborn of our sons and of our cattle, of our herds and of our flocks to the house of our God, to the priests ministering there.

37 “Moreover, we will bring to the storerooms of the house of our God, to the priests, the first of our ground meal, of our grain offerings, of the fruit of all our trees and of our new wine and olive oil. And we will bring a tithe of our crops to the Levites, for it is the Levites who collect the tithes in all the towns where we work. 38 A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God, to the storerooms of the treasury.

39 The people of Israel, including the Levites, are to bring their contributions of grain, new wine and olive oil to the storerooms, where the articles for the sanctuary and for the ministering priests, the gatekeepers and the musicians are also kept.
“We will not neglect the house of our God.”
Tithes of all the produce of the fields were brought to the Levites; out of these a tenth part was given to the priests. This is what is called the tithe of the tithes. The law for this is found, Numbers 18:26...for the Levites, having received a tenth of all land produce, were required to give a tenth of this to the priests. The Levites were charged with the additional obligation to carry the tithes when received, and deposit them in the temple stores, for the use of the priests.
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Unread 14th May 2012, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
If I may say,

There are many who dismiss Mal 3:10 altogether and say it was not something meant for today, although I grew up being told it was a reality that the Lord desired his people to be obediant to such/remember how he would open the floodgates of blessing. For others, the issue of obediance to tithing is to be continued..but within the sense that OT Israel did it concerning agriculture/farming---and for others within that world, it makes sense to do so.

I know that at the Messianic fellowship I go to, the subject really isn't discussed much from what I've seen..and I know that some of the leadership there do not agree that tithing should be done for today since, in their view, it's impossible to recreate the system. Others, however, are for it. But again, it's not something that is a predominant focus. There've been some debates on the subject before in smallgroup meetings and generally, although I think alot of what's labeled as "tithing" today isn't really Biblical, I tend to come down on the side saying that alot of it is indeed Biblically based and really shouldn't be an issue when/if the focus is upon the Lord and simply being generous in one's giving. I tend to keep the matter to myself when at the Messianic Fellowship I attend since it's not something I really care to go to war for wherever I'm at---and I don't feel that one has to tithe in order to be a real believer (as many are for the concept of generous giving)---but in studying the Law/Torah on some things, it seems (IMHO) that the spirit of tithing has never left the church and that the early church still gave in remembrance of what the Lord did.

The tithe, in it's original form, it would o be used to feed the poor, as well was feeding other groups..and this in fact this was the purpose for the store house.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29

28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that years produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.


Interestingly enough, there are actually some people that do just that. In remembrance of what was noted about distributing one of the three tithtes to the poor and marginalized: the aliens, fatherless and widows (Deuteronomy 14:28-29), they actually grow food to feed others...as throwing money at a situation often doesn't prove to be effective in meeting the needs of others. Historically, others sought to put that principle (alongside faith) into practice--such as men of faith like George Washington Carver (who was discussed more in-depth here elsewhere). Additionally, there is one organization known as Sustainable Traditions which is very big about showing faith/the power of the Lord via what we choose to grow...and how we go about growing that.


Although the focus is more so upon money whenever discussion of tithing comes up, IMHO, I'd tend to think that it'd have more relevance for others who have either bought a farm so that they can raise herds and grow crops...or those who grew up within the farming lifestyle/understand the importance of crops. As I had been involved in churches were tithing was either abused or done in a beautiful manner, it was a conflict to see so much civil war going on. Sometimes I wonder if much of the discussions on "tithe vs no tithe" can at times be misplaced due to missing the central focus of whether or not we're really loving the neighbors we're giving to in the first place--and if we truly are looking out for them or seeking to see their giving within an economy of love, would the amount really matter as much as the act behind it?

To me, it's obvious that many churches preaching tithing today do not realize that what they may advocate isn't really fully in line with how the system operated within the OT--and for those that say modern-day tithing does, there can be necessity in trying to clear up where there are innaccuracies.

On researching the issue, I thought Rabbi Derek Lemnan had some very interesting thoughts to share in an article I discovered entitled The Tithe in Ancient Israel, Pt 1 | Messianic Jewish Musings and The Tithe in Ancient Israel, Pt 2 | Messianic Jewish Musings. In his words (for a brief excerpt from his writings):

What was the tithe about and what force does it have today in our very different situation?

The Most Relevant Scriptures

There are a number of scriptures which reflect later concerns and issues about the tithe, such as the familiar sermon of Malachi about bringing the tithes to the storehouse. Also, in Nehemiah and Chronicles we have some verses about the collection of tithes and so on. But the formative passages are in the Torah. It should be of note for Christians and Messianic Jews that the tithe is not mentioned in the New Testament except in Hebrews 7, referring to the story of Abraham tithing to Melchizedek.
Genesis 14:20, Abraham gives a tithe of the spoils to Melchizedek.

Genesis 28:22, Jacob vows to tithe to the Lord when he returns to the land.

Leviticus 27:30-33, An as-yet-unexplained regulation of tithes and redeeming them for money, to the Lord, consisting of crops and animals.

Numbers 18:21-31, The first explanation of the tithe-obligation, to the Levites, only a tithe of crops is mentioned.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27, The second explanation of the tithe, eaten by the owner in a communal meal, of crops and animals, able to be redeemed for money.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29, A third-year tithe stored in towns for the poor and the Levites.
There is another passage, but it is not as formative, in Deuteronomy 26:12-14, in which the Israelite declares to the priest that all the dues to the Temple, including the tithe, have been given properly.


On Difficulties in Harmonizing and Various Systems


It is clear that the idea of tithing came before the laws of Torah were given. Jacob Milgrom details tithe practices in other nations as a prelude to his investigation (JPS Commentary on Numbers, Excursus 46, pp. 432-3).
The first mention of the tithe in the legal sections of Torah is unexplained, suggesting that the people already knew their obligation to tithe and that these laws simply specify procedures for something that was already done. Leviticus 27:30-33 says the tithe is all to the Lord, which most likely means to the priests.

The second legislation of the tithe suggests (Numbers 18:21-31) it is all to the Levites who in turn tithe to the priests. This can easily be harmonized with the Leviticus regulation since the relationship of Levites and priests is rather ambiguous anyway.

The third and fourth legislation (Deuteronomy 14:22-27 and 28-29) are more difficult to harmonize. Critical scholars suggest that these reflect a change in Torah. The earlier laws, they say, go back to a time when there were temples to the Lord in every major town and when the Levites required a large base of support (Milgrom, 434-5). But once there was only one central sanctuary (Deuteronomy 12), they say the law changed, so that the priests received the gifts of Israel while the Israelites kept their tithe and used it at the festivals.

Looking at the history of the tithe is, for one thing, a matter of deciding if we believe Torah is a unity or a combination of possibly contradictory sources.

For those of us who see Torah as a unity the tithe laws are a challenge and different harmonizations have been suggested over the years.
The three-tithe system, as in the book of Tobit. E.P. Sanders discusses the interpretations of the tithe available to us from Second Temple and early rabbinic sources. In a strict interpretation, there were three tithes. Tobit gave a tithe to the Levites, spent a second tithe in Jerusalem at the feasts, and every third year gave a third tithe to the poor and Levites (Judaism, Practice and Belief, 148-9).

The three-tithe system in Josephus (Antiquities 4.69, 205, 240).

The two-tithe system of the Mishnah (Tractates Maaserot and Maaser Sheni). This system required that in each year two separate tithes were set apart except every seventh year. The idea that tithes operate on a seven-year system may seem confusing at first, but it is a matter of combining the tithe laws with the law of resting the land every seventh year (and if there are no crops in the seventh year, there can be no crop-tithe). The first tithe (maaser ani, maaser Levi) is given in every year but seventh years to the Levites (as per Leviticus and Numbers). A second tithe is set apart in years one, two, four, and five to be eaten at the Temple (as per Deuteronomy) and for the poor and Levites in the third and sixth years (also as per Deuteronomy).

What about the tithe on animals? The Mishnah assumes that tithed animals were not given to the Levites and priests. They were eaten by the worshipper at the Temple or redeemed for money as per Deuteronomy.

What about the added fifth of Leviticus versus no added fifth in Deuteronomy? It was assumed that if you redeemed first tithe for money, you must add a fifth (as per Leviticus). But if you redeemed a second tithe, no fifth was added (as per Deuteronomy). When we speak of redeeming for money, we mean that the stored crops and animals were exchanged for money and then the money was used in Jerusalem as a gift or to purchase food there.
GGG

....The situation in our day is very different from in the Torah. Judaism acknowledges this, while Protestant Christianity clings to an outdated and untenable system.

Here is what I mean

As concerns obligation, Judaism acknowledges that the tithe laws of the Torah are partially inapplicable today. The laws as given concern Israel in the land supporting the Temple and priesthood.

But there is no functional priesthood now and no Temple to support.

Thus, Judaism has adapted the second tithe to fulfill the highest ideal of Torah. Whereas in Temple times, the second tithe was for a communal meal in years one, two, four, and five, and set aside for the poor in years three and six, it is now the case that the tithe is to be given to the poor in every year. But what about the seventh year? Since our modern lives involve income in every year, as opposed to the system in agricultural Israel where the seventh year had no harvest, the obligation to give a tithe is every year. Additionally, the shmittah (Sabbath year) and yovel (Jubilee year) legislation assumes the people of Israel living in the land, and they are based on the idea of God blessing the land to miraculously provide for the fallow fields. So any application of the second tithe (for the poor) cannot be combined with a practice of Sabbath years outside of the land.

Thus, in Judaism, the tithe law is applied as giving to the poor at all times and giving between a tenth and a fifth. It is considered an obligation to give a tenth to charity. And charity is prioritized, first to family in need, then to local needs, then to needs in Israel, and last to organizations and charities.





For other good reviews on the matter, as Rabbi Derek Lemnan has had some good thoughts on the subject:
As said earlier, I'd love to be apart of those who are involved in farming/agriculture since it seems that they'd actually have a better opportunity to practice tithing according to how it was within the OT than others today to think of tithes/offerings solely in terms of money.

One may walk in the Spirit of the tithe, but they cannot replicate the entire system as the OT defined it since tithing is a Mosaic law, and is connected to the Temple and the Priesthood. It can not be done fully without a Temple and Priesthood. FOR without a Temple to run, the tithe for the Priest's would stop. Although the Jewish people in the early church were well known for tithing still, they were closer in having ability to do so than we are today.

Some have noted that in Brit Chadasha ALL believers are ordained Melchizedeki priests by the Anointing of His Spirit -- with today's clergy not being another "tribe" separate from His holy priesthood that we are commanded to support by tithes from "common" believers anymore . There is actually a great difference between the A/L (Aaronic/Levitical ) priestly system according to the LOM (Law of Moses), and our New Covenant priesthood (even before the Mosaic Covenant when Abe tithed to Melchizedek in Genesis 14, it was because our Patriarch was NOT a priest himself, but in Brit Chadasha we are ALL Members of HIS Priestly BODY -- I Peter 2).
Doe this post not support various forms of tithing (not saying anything is wrong with that?)
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Unread 14th May 2012, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sacerdote View Post
Doe this post not support various forms of tithing (not saying anything is wrong with that?)
Got ya. To be clear (IMHO), saying one is for differing forms of tithing/giving isn't the same as advocating that the way they give is EXACTLY as Biblical tithing was in the OT.....with the pastors being the new Levites and the church building being the storehouse and the tithe somehow being 10% as God's ultimate standard in the OT. Moreover, although others within MJism don't have an issue with people who wish to give 10% tithe since they can appreciate the spirit they do it it, that does not mean that MJism overall is about advocating for "tithes being a requirment in the Body of Christ"

If I go to a MJish fellowship, you'll not hear any sermons about how the giving is down due to how the members are refusing to be obediant to Malachi 3 with bringing the whole tithe into the storehouse...nor would you often hear about people being "cursed" for not giving a percentaage such as 10% on every paycheck you get from the Lord. The reasons why is because it's understood that tithing according to the Mosaic law required certain aspects to be in place (temple, priesthood, farming/animals, etc)...and that is something that often goes directly to many camps in Christendom. However, what you will see are others who note that the word "tithe" is simply 10% and anyone wishing to give such can do so....and say it's indeed a tithe or "tithing" except it's a form not necessarily akin to how the scriptures were for it. To many, for someone to say they "tithe" in MJism is simply another way of saying that they do what the Bible says on generous giving and offerings (semantics), as opposed to how others in traditional Christianity often say that their tithing is mandatory while giving/offerings are seperate.

For those insisting on tithing, tithing may be a helpful guideline as we strive to develop a lifestyle of greater giving, but it was and still is possible to tithe faithfully yet fail to give generously (Matthew 23:23). For the New Testament praises people who voluntarily express love for God and neighbor by giving at great cost to themselves (Mark 12:33-44; 2 Corinthians 8:1-7). “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sakes became poor so that we by his poverty might become rich” (2 Corinthians 8:9).

And within the early church, the system of tithing (under the theocracy) was excedded by those who were generous givers...and as Jews, they would not have forgotten the strict commands by the Lord to give. For a good source of info on the issue, one can go online here and The Ancient Rise and Recent Fall of Tithing | Christian History. To my knowledge, the early Jewish believers had no problem with tithing since they had done it under the Law and gave it to the priests...but with all of the changes that had gone down over the centuries with Judaism and the concept of the rabbi taking over that of the priest concept in many ways, the emphasis of tithing shifted. What occurred was that they simply gave their tithe to the elders of the church and did by love---and excelled in the NEW Covenant when the boundaries were expanded further.

With occurred with the Hebrew believers in Jewish Christianity sent ripple effects into the communities within Gentile Christianity. In example, the Eastern Church began tithing out of obligation because they believed Jesus' conversation with the rich young man demanded sacrificial generosity. Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeus pleaded with the church to surpass even the Old Testament tithe since (in their view) Christ had freed them from the Law. Later church fathers—John Chrysostom, Cyprian, Origen, and Augustine among them—complained from time to time that their followers lacked Christian charity. Chrysostom even shamed his stingy church for marveling at those who tithed. He contrasted their amazement with the dutiful giving of Old Testament Jews.

Pretty much all of MJism agrees with what Rabbinical Judaism notes when it comes the reasons why we cannot truly "tithe" as the OT scriptures demonstrated without certain factors in place--but the giving is always appreciated, regardless of whether it's called a "tithe" or not. .Hope that makes sense...
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Originally Posted by Qnts2 View Post
Tithing is not done in Rabbinic Judaism because of the lack of the Temple and active Priesthood.
.
There are alot of people who are of the thought that an active Temple and Priesthood would mean that tithing would become a requirement once again....as in people in Israel who are Jewish being required to go to the temple/tithe if the Levitical priesthood was once again found and the building was set up for it...and others believe all Jews worldwide would be called to go to Israel since things are not as they were in 70 AD when Temple life ceased.
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thank you for the info on Judaical practices.... that is EXACTLY what i want to study.... Judaism's tithing history.... and how/why it changed.... and then after i understand that.... i want to study the TO MJ's tithing/giving practices....

Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
The tithe, in it's original form, it would o be used to feed the poor, as well was feeding other groups..and this in fact this was the purpose for the store house.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29
28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that years produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.


On researching the issue, I thought Rabbi Derek Lemnan had some very interesting thoughts to share in an article I discovered entitled The Tithe in Ancient Israel, Pt 1 | Messianic Jewish Musings and The Tithe in Ancient Israel, Pt 2 | Messianic Jewish Musings. In his words (for a brief excerpt from his writings):

The Most Relevant Scriptures
There are a number of scriptures which reflect later concerns and issues about the tithe, such as the familiar sermon of Malachi about bringing the tithes to the storehouse. Also, in Nehemiah and Chronicles we have some verses about the collection of tithes and so on. But the formative passages are in the Torah. It should be of note for Christians and Messianic Jews that the tithe is not mentioned in the New Testament except in Hebrews 7, referring to the story of Abraham tithing to Melchizedek.

Genesis 14:20, Abraham gives a tithe of the spoils to Melchizedek.

Genesis 28:22, Jacob vows to tithe to the Lord when he returns to the land.

Leviticus 27:30-33, An as-yet-unexplained regulation of tithes and redeeming them for money, to the Lord, consisting of crops and animals.

Numbers 18:21-31, The first explanation of the tithe-obligation, to the Levites, only a tithe of crops is mentioned.

Deuteronomy 14:22-27, The second explanation of the tithe, eaten by the owner in a communal meal, of crops and animals, able to be redeemed for money.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29, A third-year tithe stored in towns for the poor and the Levites.

There is another passage, but it is not as formative, in Deuteronomy 26:12-14, in which the Israelite declares to the priest that all the dues to the Temple, including the tithe, have been given properly.

Leviticus 27:30-33 says the tithe is all to the Lord, which most likely means to the priests.

The second legislation of the tithe suggests (Numbers 18:21-31) it is all to the Levites who in turn tithe to the priests. This can easily be harmonized with the Leviticus regulation since the relationship of Levites and priests is rather ambiguous anyway.

The third and fourth legislation (Deuteronomy 14:22-27 and 28-29) are more difficult to harmonize. Critical scholars suggest that these reflect a change in Torah. The earlier laws, they say, go back to a time when there were temples to the Lord in every major town and when the Levites required a large base of support (Milgrom, 434-5). But once there was only one central sanctuary (Deuteronomy 12), they say the law changed, so that the priests received the gifts of Israel while the Israelites kept their tithe and used it at the festivals.

The three-tithe system, as in the book of Tobit. E.P. Sanders discusses the interpretations of the tithe available to us from Second Temple and early rabbinic sources. In a strict interpretation, there were three tithes. Tobit gave a tithe to the Levites, spent a second tithe in Jerusalem at the feasts, and every third year gave a third tithe to the poor and Levites (Judaism, Practice and Belief, 148-9).

The three-tithe system in Josephus (Antiquities 4.69, 205, 240).

The two-tithe system of the Mishnah (Tractates Maaserot and Maaser Sheni). This system required that in each year two separate tithes were set apart except every seventh year. The idea that tithes operate on a seven-year system may seem confusing at first, but it is a matter of combining the tithe laws with the law of resting the land every seventh year (and if there are no crops in the seventh year, there can be no crop-tithe). The first tithe (maaser ani, maaser Levi) is given in every year but seventh years to the Levites (as per Leviticus and Numbers). A second tithe is set apart in years one, two, four, and five to be eaten at the Temple (as per Deuteronomy) and for the poor and Levites in the third and sixth years (also as per Deuteronomy).

What about the tithe on animals? The Mishnah assumes that tithed animals were not given to the Levites and priests. They were eaten by the worshipper at the Temple or redeemed for money as per Deuteronomy.

What about the added fifth of Leviticus versus no added fifth in Deuteronomy? It was assumed that if you redeemed first tithe for money, you must add a fifth (as per Leviticus). But if you redeemed a second tithe, no fifth was added (as per Deuteronomy). When we speak of redeeming for money, we mean that the stored crops and animals were exchanged for money and then the money was used in Jerusalem as a gift or to purchase food there.

GGG

As concerns obligation, Judaism acknowledges that the tithe laws of the Torah are partially inapplicable today. The laws as given concern Israel in the land supporting the Temple and priesthood.

But there is no functional priesthood now and no Temple to support.

Thus, Judaism has adapted the second tithe to fulfill the highest ideal of Torah. Whereas in Temple times, the second tithe was for a communal meal in years one, two, four, and five, and set aside for the poor in years three and six, it is now the case that the tithe is to be given to the poor in every year. But what about the seventh year? Since our modern lives involve income in every year, as opposed to the system in agricultural Israel where the seventh year had no harvest, the obligation to give a tithe is every year. Additionally, the shmittah (Sabbath year) and yovel (Jubilee year) legislation assumes the people of Israel living in the land, and they are based on the idea of God blessing the land to miraculously provide for the fallow fields. So any application of the second tithe (for the poor) cannot be combined with a practice of Sabbath years outside of the land.

Thus, in Judaism, the tithe law is applied as giving to the poor at all times and giving between a tenth and a fifth. It is considered an obligation to give a tenth to charity. And charity is prioritized, first to family in need, then to local needs, then to needs in Israel, and last to organizations and charities.

For other good reviews on the matter, as Rabbi Derek Lemnan has had some good thoughts on the subject:
One may walk in the Spirit of the tithe, but they cannot replicate the entire system as the OT defined it since tithing is a Mosaic law, and is connected to the Temple and the Priesthood. It can not be done fully without a Temple and Priesthood. FOR without a Temple to run, the tithe for the Priest's would stop. Although the Jewish people in the early church were well known for tithing still, they were closer in having ability to do so than we are today.

Some have noted that in Brit Chadasha ALL believers are ordained Melchizedeki priests by the Anointing of His Spirit -- with today's clergy not being another "tribe" separate from His holy priesthood that we are commanded to support by tithes from "common" believers anymore . There is actually a great difference between the A/L (Aaronic/Levitical ) priestly system according to the LOM (Law of Moses), and our New Covenant priesthood (even before the Mosaic Covenant when Abe tithed to Melchizedek in Genesis 14, it was because our Patriarch was NOT a priest himself, but in Brit Chadasha we are ALL Members of HIS Priestly BODY -- I Peter 2).

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Originally Posted by HolySpiritWOF2 View Post
the TORAH says that the 3 tithes could ONLY be brought to the temple?.... and be administered/received by the priests?....

trying to find that specific command.... does anyone have the reference?.....

Nehemiah 10:35-38

As it is also written in the Law, we will bring the firstborn of our sons and of our cattle, of our herds and of our flocks to the house of our God, to the priests ministering there.

37 Moreover, we will bring to the storerooms of the house of our God, to the priests, the first of our ground meal, of our grain offerings, of the fruit of all our trees and of our new wine and olive oil. And we will bring a tithe of our crops to the Levites, for it is the Levites who collect the tithes in all the towns where we work. 38 A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God, to the storerooms of the treasury.
Hope this helps....as this was said in light of a renewal of the covenant after the 70yr exile of the Jewish people in Babylon and their return (also seen in Ezra)/the rebuilding of the temple and the Walls of Jerusalem.

Originally Posted by HolySpiritWOF2 View Post
thank you for the info on Judaical practices.... ....
No problem...

that is exactly what i want to study.... Judaism's tithing history.... and how/why it changed.... and then after i understand that.... i want to study the TO MJ's tithing/giving practices
It would probably help you greatly in your studies if you study the camp within Judaism known as the Essenes (mentioned here in #6 ) since they considered by most scholars to be the forerunners for the early church since that camp of Judaism had already left the Temple system altogether decades before and had a system of giving in place that later came into the NT Church with community giving/communalism.

Although the Essenes did not participate in temple ceremonies except for the payment of the tithe, they were sadly forced out of Jerusalem due to a host of reasons...and thus, like the early church, they had to find differing ways of knowing how to survive.

For more:
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I knew you would. You're a smart guy. God bless.

Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
Got ya. To be clear (IMHO), saying one is for differing forms of tithing/giving isn't the same as advocating that the way they give is EXACTLY as Biblical tithing was in the OT.....with the pastors being the new Levites and the church building being the storehouse and the tithe somehow being 10% as God's ultimate standard in the OT. Moreover, although others within MJism don't have an issue with people who wish to give 10% tithe since they can appreciate the spirit they do it it, that does not mean that MJism overall is about advocating for "tithes being a requirment in the Body of Christ"

If I go to a MJish fellowship, you'll not hear any sermons about how the giving is down due to how the members are refusing to be obediant to Malachi 3 with bringing the whole tithe into the storehouse...nor would you often hear about people being "cursed" for not giving a percentaage such as 10% on every paycheck you get from the Lord. The reasons why is because it's understood that tithing according to the Mosaic law required certain aspects to be in place (temple, priesthood, farming/animals, etc)...and that is something that often goes directly to many camps in Christendom. However, what you will see are others who note that the word "tithe" is simply 10% and anyone wishing to give such can do so....and say it's indeed a tithe or "tithing" except it's a form not necessarily akin to how the scriptures were for it. To many, for someone to say they "tithe" in MJism is simply another way of saying that they do what the Bible says on generous giving and offerings (semantics), as opposed to how others in traditional Christianity often say that their tithing is mandatory while giving/offerings are seperate.

For those insisting on tithing, tithing may be a helpful guideline as we strive to develop a lifestyle of greater giving, but it was and still is possible to tithe faithfully yet fail to give generously (Matthew 23:23). For the New Testament praises people who voluntarily express love for God and neighbor by giving at great cost to themselves (Mark 12:33-44; 2 Corinthians 8:1-7). For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sakes became poor so that we by his poverty might become rich (2 Corinthians 8:9).

And within the early church, the system of tithing (under the theocracy) was excedded by those who were generous givers...and as Jews, they would not have forgotten the strict commands by the Lord to give. For a good source of info on the issue, one can go online here and The Ancient Rise and Recent Fall of Tithing | Christian History. To my knowledge, the early Jewish believers had no problem with tithing since they had done it under the Law and gave it to the priests...but with all of the changes that had gone down over the centuries with Judaism and the concept of the rabbi taking over that of the priest concept in many ways, the emphasis of tithing shifted. What occurred was that they simply gave their tithe to the elders of the church and did by love---and excelled in the NEW Covenant when the boundaries were expanded further.

With occurred with the Hebrew believers in Jewish Christianity sent ripple effects into the communities within Gentile Christianity. In example, the Eastern Church began tithing out of obligation because they believed Jesus' conversation with the rich young man demanded sacrificial generosity. Clement of Alexandria and Irenaeus pleaded with the church to surpass even the Old Testament tithe since (in their view) Christ had freed them from the Law. Later church fathersJohn Chrysostom, Cyprian, Origen, and Augustine among themcomplained from time to time that their followers lacked Christian charity. Chrysostom even shamed his stingy church for marveling at those who tithed. He contrasted their amazement with the dutiful giving of Old Testament Jews.

Pretty much all of MJism agrees with what Rabbinical Judaism notes when it comes the reasons why we cannot truly "tithe" as the OT scriptures demonstrated without certain factors in place--but the giving is always appreciated, regardless of whether it's called a "tithe" or not. .Hope that makes sense...
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Originally Posted by HolySpiritWOF2 View Post
thank you for the info on Judaical practices.... that is EXACTLY what i want to study.... Judaism's tithing history.... and how/why it changed.... and then after i understand that.... i want to study the TO MJ's tithing/giving practices....
If you're cool, may I ask what inspired you to want to do more research on the subject/history review? Was there some kind of discussion happening in your church or a conversation with someone who brought up the issue...or was it simply a desire to learn as the subject was on your heart/a passion of yours?
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Love the truth sets us free....

Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
If you're cool, may I ask what inspired you to want to do more research on the subject/history review? Was there some kind of discussion happening in your church or a conversation with someone who brought up the issue...or was it simply a desire to learn as the subject was on your heart/a passion of yours?
i have been a part of many christian discussions on the malachi tithe.... i have heard all sides.... i see some christians get REALLY condemned about trying to DO the malachi tithe.... it DEEPLY affects their relationship with the L_ORD.... i studied the TORAH the best i could.... prayed diligently.... and was STILL not properly understanding G_D's WORD on the subject....

i saw some posts by MJ's in the TORAH forum on how christians misunderstand the tithe.... so i felt strongly to find out what the TORAH TRULY says about the tithe....

love... blessings... prayers....

Last edited by HolySpiritWOF2; 15th May 2012 at 02:43 PM.
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