Evidence for the trinity [moved from The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox]

tapi · #11 9th May 2012, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by truthseeker32

Thank you for your response.

You have given an example that shows that there are three distinct persons. Where is the evidence that they are one being and not three separate beings?

Our Lord Jesus Christ constantly taught that He was one with the Father. You can find myriad of examples in the Gospels, especially in the one of St. John.

Indeed, in John 5:58 he tells the crowd “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!. This is in reference to Exodus 3:14 where God reveals his name to Moses using the same phrase. The jews attempt to stone him after this as certainly they saw it as blasphemy of the greatest sort.

Would have like continue with more examples but I have to go to sleep now, 5:50 am here. Hopefully others will continue

someguy14 · #12 9th May 2012, 11:14 PM

Luke 3:22
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

buzuxi02 · #13 10th May 2012, 01:57 AM

All the earliest Fathers understood the relationship of the hypostasis' in a similiar manner albeit with different wrinkles. Subordinationism was an extremely popular tendency before Nicea, where the Son ranked second and the Spirit ranked in the third place in the economy.
Sabellanism- considered the first heresy pertaining to the Trinity taught the three persons were three seperate modes of the one God. Hyppolytus tells us that this heresy actually originated with a presbyter named Noetus (Tertullian also when refuting Sabelius calls it the heresy of Noetus). Hippolytus explains what Noetus preached:

1. Some others are secretly introducing another doctrine, who have become disciples of one Noetus, who was a native of Smyrna, (and) lived not very long ago. This person was greatly puffed up and inflated with pride, being inspired by the conceit of a strange spirit. He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died...
When the blessed presbyters heard this, they summoned him before the Church, and examined him. But he denied at first that he held such opinions. Afterwards, however, taking shelter among some, and having gathered round him some others who had embraced the same error, he wished thereafter to uphold his dogma openly as correct. And the blessed presbyters called him again before them, and examined him. But he stood out against them, saying, What evil, then, am I doing in glorifying Christ? And the presbyters replied to him, We too know in truth one God; we know Christ; we know that the Son suffered even as He suffered, and died even as He died, and rose again on the third day, and is at the right hand of the Father, and comes to judge the living and the dead. And these things which we have learned we allege. Then, after examining him, they expelled him from the Church. And he was carried to such a pitch of pride, that he established a school.

Hippolytus goes onto explain the reasoning the followers of Noetus give for their belief:

..Thus they say they prove that God is one. And then they answer in this manner: If therefore I acknowledge Christ to be God, He is the Father Himself, if He is indeed God; and Christ suffered, being Himself God; and consequently the Father suffered, for He was the Father Himself...You see, then, he says, that this is God, who is the only One, and who afterwards did show Himself, and conversed with men... Do you see, he says, how the Scriptures proclaim one God? And as this is clearly exhibited, and these passages are testimonies to it, I am under necessity, he says, since one is acknowledged, to make this One the subject of suffering. For Christ was God, and suffered on account of us, being Himself the Father, that He might be able also to save us. And we cannot express ourselves otherwise, he says; for the apostle also acknowledges one God, when he says, Whose are the fathers, (and) of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.

Hippolytus goes on to explain the traditional understanding the Trinity:

8. Many other passages, or rather all of them, attest the truth. A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine...

And thus there appeared another beside Himself. But when I say another, I do not mean that there are two Gods, but that it is only as light of light, or as water from a fountain, or as a ray from the sun. For there is but one power, which is from the All; and the Father is the All, from whom comes this Power, the Word. And this is the mind which came forth into the world, and was manifested as the Son of God...If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One. It is the Father who commands, and the Son who obeys, and the Holy Spirit who gives understanding: the Father who is above all, and the Son who is through all, and the Holy Spirit who is in all. And we cannot otherwise think of one God, but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit....

truthseeker32 · #14 10th May 2012, 02:31 AM

There is no doubting that Christ speaks of being one with the Father, and Genesis does indeed hint at the plural nature of God. However, being one does not necessarily mean physically or metaphysically one. It could mean one in purpose or something like that. This is the view non-Trinitarians hold. They see the term "God" as more of a team name than an individual.

I am fond of the Christian tradition, but having grown up in a non-trinitarian household I am also aware of the problems associated with the concept of the Trinity. The concept of the Trinity now held by mainstream Christians was not even mentioned until more than 100 years after Christ's death, and the idea faced notable opposition. It is an idea that could have been based on the triune God of ancient Celtic religion. There were Celts present at the councils after all.

ikonographics · #15 10th May 2012, 07:40 AM

Funny, just before I opened this thread, I was reading this: Basic Dogmatic Teaching - Chapter 4
Hope is helps.

Kristos · #16 10th May 2012, 09:46 AM

In general, the writings of St John are very different in style and point of view from the other evangelists and apostles of the New Testament. They all tell the same story; the same gospel of Jesus Christ, but John seems to have a uniquely sacramental and cosmological view of things, especially of the Trinity and of the God-Man, Jesus Christ. For John the Trinity is cosmic and transcendent; above all things. Where the gospel according to Mark opens with the beginning of Christ’s ministry, and where Luke and Matthew open with infancy narratives and genealogies going back to Adam and Abraham respectively, John begins his gospel “In the beginning”. This opening phrase instantly tells us that John is not just concerned about reporting the events he witnessed from a new perspective, but rather that he intends on telling about the Truth which existed before the world was created. The book of Genesis, which tells about the creation of the world, opens with these same words, “In the beginning.” When we view the Genesis story of creation through the prologue of John’s gospel, we see that John is speaking about the Creator Himself when he speaks of the Word. John’s words define the Word as eternal, and more specifically, eternally co-existing as God and with God. The Word and the Father are clearly one in essence, yet distinct. After defining the Word in such lofty terms, John then goes on to assert that this Word became flesh and dwelt on earth as the only begotten of the Father, the Incarnate Son of God, Jesus Christ. The gospel message that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, has come to dwell among us transcends all genealogies and infancy narratives, in fact it was part of God’s eternal plan for mankind and also essential for our understanding of God Himself as Trinity. Jesus Christ is not ‘a god’, but God Himself, the God of Abraham and Moses, the great “I AM” of the Old Testament, a title of God that Christ uses for Himself on multiple occasions in John’s gospel. The relationship between the Father and the Son is reciprocal, in that everything is given to the other, and neither does anything without the other. There is a harmony of will and action in all things. The Holy Spirit is differentiated from the Word by the term procession. Both come from the Father and are one with the Father and are sent by the Father, but the Word is begotten while the Holy Spirit proceeds. The Holy Spirit is another ‘helper’ or Paraclete from the Father, so John clearly defines the Spirit as distinct from the Son. The Holy Spirit is sent also into the world by the Son to guide us into all truth, but His source always remains only the Father. John reminds us that the Holy Spirit does not speak of His own authority, not because He lacks authority, but because His authority is common to the Trinity. John emphasizes this unity and expression of bearing witness to each other in his first epistle saying, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7) It is Jesus Christ, the Word who bears witness to the Father and the Holy Spirit who bear witness to the Word. Even John’s apocalypse as a witness to the revelation of Jesus Christ is given to him while he is “in the Spirit.” (Rev 1:10). The three Persons of the Holy Trinity continue to act together, from to the beginning to the end, as we see in John’s images of the Lamb and the Spirit in Revelation. From Alpha to Omega, from first to last and from beginning to end, God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Kristos · #17 10th May 2012, 09:50 AM

Paul, on the other hand, approaches the Trinity in a very personal sense in terms of our salvation. Because most of his writings are pastoral in nature, he tends to emphasis our daily and personal interaction with the Trinity rather than the cosmic and transcendent nature. For Paul himself, the gospel of God is a calling. He was called to be an apostle for the gospel of Christ which is given from the Father, concerning the Son and according to the Holy Spirit. Paul often opens and closes his letters with doxologies that give us a glimpse of his Trinitarian theology. A good example of this is given in the opening of Paul’s letter to the Romans. The distinction between the three persons of the Trinity is clearly made and not confused. Here in the opening sentences of Romans, Paul progresses through his Trinitarian theology starting with the Father as the source of the gospel, then to its subject “concerning His Son” and finally “with power according to the Spirit”. The three Persons are very distinct for Paul, but at the same time always acting in unison. Paul often confusingly calls different Persons of the Trinity by the same title, for example “Lord”. He calls the Father Lord, the Son Lord and the Holy Spirit Lord at different times, but not because he is confusing the distinct Persons, but because they are equal in esteem and dignity and one in essence. Therefore they are all properly “Lord”. The Holy Spirit is especially called Lord by Paul because of His unique roll in our new life and freedom after baptism: “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” (2Cor 3:17) Paul offers us an inclusio of his Trinitarian formula in his closing benedictions as well. The best example of this is the doxology at the end of Paul’s second letter to the Corinthians, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” (2Co 13:14) When Paul says “be with you all,” he means this in a very real sense. He repeatedly emphasizes this indwelling of God; that the Holy Spirit may dwell in us and that by this indwelling, “the Lord (may) direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.” (2Th 3:5) Not only are we to be a living temple for God, but also we must offer ourselves as living sacrifices. All this is done in the name of love. Love for God above all, but this love for God is manifested by our love for each other and this love for each other is a reflection of the Holy Trinity Itself. We must try to love each other as the Trinity loves, even though the image is not clear to us, but in the end we will come face to face with this love that binds us and all creation together. (1Cor 13) Besides love, Paul also emphasizes the many gifts of the Holy Spirit. These gifts of God come to us by the Holy Spirit but are extremely diverse and are given according to measure. It is through these gifts that the Church can actually function as the Body of Christ; that the image witnessed to us by the Holy Spirit is made manifest. One gift might be like the mouth and another like a foot and together with all the parts become the Body, which is the Church. They need each other to be what they are in order to function. So the gifts are personal but not divided because they are always the gifts of the Holy Spirit who is not divided or separated from the Father and the Son.

buzuxi02 · #18 10th May 2012, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by truthseeker32

There is no doubting that Christ speaks of being one with the Father, and Genesis does indeed hint at the plural nature of God. However, being one does not necessarily mean physically or metaphysically one. It could mean one in purpose or something like that. This is the view non-Trinitarians hold. They see the term "God" as more of a team name than an individual.

I am fond of the Christian tradition, but having grown up in a non-trinitarian household I am also aware of the problems associated with the concept of the Trinity. The concept of the Trinity now held by mainstream Christians was not even mentioned until more than 100 years after Christ's death, and the idea faced notable opposition. It is an idea that could have been based on the triune God of ancient Celtic religion. There were Celts present at the councils after all.

One hundred years after Christ's death still makes it the earliest sources on the subject. There is no need in the pages of the NT to clearly define the Trinity or any other doctrine since as Kristo points out it was an experience in worship not a neatly spelled out dogma. But it does not matter of origins, if its false then there is no christianity at all. Scripture says the gates of Hades shall not prevail against Her. If the Church is in error then seek out a new religion, for scripture and tradition never teach that christians will hold false doma until centuries pass and her future scholars revise it.

Vague Doctrines are only clarified in time, when contrary teachings surface. So obviously a more targeted exposition of the Trinity didnt began till early in the 2nd century to counter the gnostic teachings of Valentinus. Valentinus whose system of belief was like reading an elaborate science-fiction novel was quite complex . On the God-head he basically taught that the male (Father) and female (Spirit) aspect of the Godhead manifested the Son who in turn emanated all the aeons.

Clement of Alexandria in 195 ad speaks of the emergence of these heresies:

For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius.

And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, ends with Nero. It was later, in the times of Adrian the king, that those who invented the heresies arose; and they extended to the age of Antoninus the elder...

Such being the case, it is evident, from the high antiquity and perfect truth of the Church, that these later heresies, and those yet subsequent to them in time, were new inventions falsified [from the truth].

From what has been said, then, it is my opinion that the true Church, that which is really ancient, is one, and that in it those who according to God's purpose are just, are enrolled. For from the very reason that God is one, and the Lord one, that which is in the highest degree honourable is lauded in consequence of its singleness, being an imitation of the one first principle. In the nature of the One, then, is associated in a joint heritage the one Church, which they strive to cut asunder into many sects.

Therefore in substance and idea, in origin, in pre-eminence, we say that the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, collecting as it does into the unity of the one faith-which results from the peculiar Testaments, or rather the one Testament in different times by the will of the one God, through one Lord-those already ordained, whom God predestinated, knowing before the foundation of the world that they would be righteous.
But the pre-eminence of the Church, as the principle of union, is, in its oneness, in this surpassing all things else, and having nothing like or equal to itself...
Of the heresies, some receive their appellation from a [person's] name, as that which is called after Valentinus, and that after Marcion, and that after Basilides, although they boast of adducing the opinion of Matthew [without truth]; for as the teaching, so also the tradition of the apostles was one. Some take their designation from a place, as the Peratici; some from a nation, as the [heresy] of the Phrygians; some from an action, as that of the Encratites; and some from peculiar dogmas, as that of the Docetae, and that of the Harmatites; and some from suppositions, and from individuals they have honoured, as those called Cainists, and the Ophians; and some from nefarious practices and enormities, as those of the Simonians called Entychites.

truthseeker32 · #19 10th May 2012, 03:41 PM

Thanks for the replies, everyone. They confirm my speculation that the truth of the doctrine of the trinity relies on the statements of the Orthodox/ Catholic Christian church. Outside of these authorities there is no basis for the doctrine of the trinity.

Protoevangel · #20 10th May 2012, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by truthseeker32

Thanks for the replies, everyone. They confirm my speculation that the truth of the doctrine of the trinity relies on the statements of the Orthodox/ Catholic Christian church. Outside of these authorities there is no basis for the doctrine of the trinity.