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  #21  
Old 8th May 2012, 05:58 AM
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Hi Chrissy, welcome to CF I'm a bit late because I've been busy with work lately but I feel to contribute my thoughts to your search for truth. Specifically I see what you are identifying is divisions in the church. Dogmatic division. Division by belief. I have seen your response to the less loving pitch of the gospel. There is a verse about this:

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 3
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Does this make sense to you? I know that reading the bible can be hard if you don't have much experience to contextualize it. This is Paul writing to the Corinthian church about another preacher called "Apollos". Some of the church members had been getting confused and were arguing about whether Paul or Apollos were telling the true message. Paul eloquently advised them in that verse to be careful whose teaching we should adopt, because the quality of wisdom is not the same from one person to another. In fact Paul went on to speak about that in verse 18:

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 3
Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise.
That blatant "smack the fear of hell into them" gospel is exactly what Jesus taught us not to do. He said this:

Originally Posted by Matthew 7:15
Matthew 10:16
“I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Some teachers aren't very shrewd. So just be careful not to let your experience with bad teachers to tarnish your relationship with God.

Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
1. Why are gay people not accepted in most religions? I'm not gay but I have a lot of friends that are. Why are they told that they are sinners and horrible people and unworthy because they love someone who is the same sex. If god created man in the image of himself then surely he made gay people too.
That's just the way the world is. Gays are picked on because they are a minority. In context of the sin, I think there are more harmful types of sin such as lying, stealing, abuse etc, but it is still an activity that God in His holiness finds disgusting. God is not the only one who finds it disgusting either. But there are churches around that don't try and force people to live in God's way, instead they are happy to love their neighbour as their own. Further to this, there are individuals in each church and their personal opinions will vary a lot. So don't get discouraged due to some bad eggs, get out and experience all the churces in your area, you may even find one that you feel really comfortable with.
Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
2. Why do new born babies and innocent children die when they haven't even had chance to sin?
What FundiMentalist said
Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
3. Why if god created the world did he create Africa and Ethiopia the way it is?
Is that a fact?
Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
Why is that part of the world so badly designed that it can't sustain life and so many people and children are dying from starvation! No child deserves that!
I agree. The world needs a universal governance that can distribute resources as needed. Too much food is wasted in our current civilization, the present system is downright evil. And I still can't buy tree-ripened fruit at the shops!
Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
4. I believe in evolution and that is one thing that I can't not believe and I guess that's the one thing that is stopping me believing in god. I can believe that god created everything but I can't ignore that there were dinosaurs roaming the earth before Adam and eve and of course the prehistoric people that evolved from apes. They have skeletons of dinosaurs and of homoerrectus and so on. How can I fit that in with believing in god? Is there a way I can believe both?
Beliefs are just that, they are beliefs. What matters is the result of that belief. So for scientists studying evolution, their reward is a greater understanding of biology. For Christians believing in the literal creation, their reward is faith in a God that can just do it in no time at all.
Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
This is exactly why I don't submit to god because i could never follow a religion that has these beliefs!
Guess what, you don't need to "follow a religion" that has beliefs you find unacceptable. All you need to do is strike a deal with Jesus that you will obey Him. He will teach you and guide you, to eventually be with Him forever and ever!
Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
Some babies are still born they had no chance to sin! Children are children and yes they can sin but come on you can't honestly believe a child or anyone for that matter deserves to die for a sin can you? People like that don't really exist do they?
There are some people who do believe that, they are referred to as pharisee's. Originally the pharisee's were Jews, but they have taken over Christianity too.

pharisee - definition of pharisee by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
2. A self-righteous person; a hypocrite.

Jesus said this:
Matthew 7:1. Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”


Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
Thank you very much for replying! As I said I don't know anything about religion or god or jesus. All the things I've heard about religion was from my dad who was brought up catholic and hated how he was treated in that faith and turned his back on it as soon as he could. I'm not blaming god for anything I'm simply asking questions in order to learn. I understand that if god exists then he has a plan and we can't even begin to understand it until we get to heaven. I can accept that and do.
Wrong. There is a plan and Jesus made it plain and clear:

Hebrews 9:27 people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Matthew 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

What is this kingdom?

Revelation 21
A New Heaven and a New Earth

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
I don't feel sorry for the babies that die because I know they go to a better place and it's the family thats left behind I feel for. I jjust can't be a part of a religion that judges people for being gay or any other thing they consider a sin. If its just the act of sex before marriage is a sin then that I can accept but not that people love someone of the same sex.
The issue isn't love, it is sexual immorality. A person can love a child without having sex with it.
Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
I'm getting married in 4 days and we want children and I'd love to bring them up in a faith but I also want to teach them that its ok to be who they are even if they happen to be gay, that it's wrong to judge someone else and to accept people for who they are!
Congratulations! How exciting! It is very responsible of you to want the best for your children. I think you would make a fine Christian, keep an open mind and keep reading and thinking about it. Once you've read the bible and understand what it means to be Christ's disciple, you can dedicate your life to Jesus by baptism. Now, I'm not judging you, I'm just saying that there will be something in the bible that will convict you. If you can overcome your pride that you love that sin, and accept instead that God hates that sin, you can give your life to Jesus and He will guide you and He will give you fruit from the tree of life. This is His promise to us:
Originally Posted by John 4
13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
Originally Posted by Revelation 2:7
“Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. To everyone who is victorious I will give fruit from the tree of life in the paradise of God.
That is eternal life. That is what you need to seek, don't chase after a religion, chase after Jesus' righteousness!
__________________
Psalms 25:14
Friendship with God is reserved for those who reverence him. With them alone he shares the secrets of his promises.

Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Worship the true God: ISAIAH 44:6-23

Galatians 5:22-23, NLT
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

ViaCrucis
But Scripture seems fairly straightforward about what that forgiveness looks like, it looks like the Son of God hanging upon a cross. Jesus is God's forgiveness.

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  #22  
Old 8th May 2012, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
Thank you. What faith are you in? X
According to his religion sign he is Anglican. Which is a denomination of Christianity.
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  #23  
Old 8th May 2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by InThePinc
Thank you. What faith are you in? X
Anglican.
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  #24  
Old 8th May 2012, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ebia View Post
Anglican.
And relevant to this thread, the Anglican Communion has been grappled with for recent decades what homosexuality means within Christianity and Scripture and its interpretation.

Earlier I had mentioned the Episcopal church. That's the church within the church of the Anglican Communion friendly toward LGBT.

And it's not just the Anglican Communion working through this. You'll now days find many Evangelical scholars, theologians, pastors, and believers friendly toward LGBT.

In fact you might want to watch this video on Don’t Blame the Bible for Your Bad Views on Homosexuality.
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  #25  
Old 8th May 2012, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by oi_antz View Post
Hi Chrissy, welcome to CF I'm a bit late because I've been busy with work lately but I feel to contribute my thoughts to your search for truth. Specifically I see what you are identifying is divisions in the church. Dogmatic division. Division by belief. I have seen your response to the less loving pitch of the gospel. There is a verse about this:



Does this make sense to you? I know that reading the bible can be hard if you don't have much experience to contextualize it. This is Paul writing to the Corinthian church about another preacher called "Apollos". Some of the church members had been getting confused and were arguing about whether Paul or Apollos were telling the true message. Paul eloquently advised them in that verse to be careful whose teaching we should adopt, because the quality of wisdom is not the same from one person to another. In fact Paul went on to speak about that in verse 18:



That blatant "smack the fear of hell into them" gospel is exactly what Jesus taught us not to do. He said this:



Some teachers aren't very shrewd. So just be careful not to let your experience with bad teachers to tarnish your relationship with God.


That's just the way the world is. Gays are picked on because they are a minority. In context of the sin, I think there are more harmful types of sin such as lying, stealing, abuse etc, but it is still an activity that God in His holiness finds disgusting. God is not the only one who finds it disgusting either. But there are churches around that don't try and force people to live in God's way, instead they are happy to love their neighbour as their own. Further to this, there are individuals in each church and their personal opinions will vary a lot. So don't get discouraged due to some bad eggs, get out and experience all the churces in your area, you may even find one that you feel really comfortable with.


What FundiMentalist said

Is that a fact?

I agree. The world needs a universal governance that can distribute resources as needed. Too much food is wasted in our current civilization, the present system is downright evil. And I still can't buy tree-ripened fruit at the shops!

Beliefs are just that, they are beliefs. What matters is the result of that belief. So for scientists studying evolution, their reward is a greater understanding of biology. For Christians believing in the literal creation, their reward is faith in a God that can just do it in no time at all.

Guess what, you don't need to "follow a religion" that has beliefs you find unacceptable. All you need to do is strike a deal with Jesus that you will obey Him. He will teach you and guide you, to eventually be with Him forever and ever!

There are some people who do believe that, they are referred to as pharisee's. Originally the pharisee's were Jews, but they have taken over Christianity too.

pharisee - definition of pharisee by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
2. A self-righteous person; a hypocrite.

Jesus said this:
Matthew 7:1. Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”



Wrong. There is a plan and Jesus made it plain and clear:

Hebrews 9:27 people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Matthew 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

What is this kingdom?

Revelation 21
A New Heaven and a New Earth

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”


The issue isn't love, it is sexual immorality. A person can love a child without having sex with it.

Congratulations! How exciting! It is very responsible of you to want the best for your children. I think you would make a fine Christian, keep an open mind and keep reading and thinking about it. Once you've read the bible and understand what it means to be Christ's disciple, you can dedicate your life to Jesus by baptism. Now, I'm not judging you, I'm just saying that there will be something in the bible that will convict you. If you can overcome your pride that you love that sin, and accept instead that God hates that sin, you can give your life to Jesus and He will guide you and He will give you fruit from the tree of life. This is His promise to us:


That is eternal life. That is what you need to seek, don't chase after a religion, chase after Jesus' righteousness!
Wow thank you very much! I'm a complete beginner in this and I have a lot of questions and probably a lot of stupid ones. I feel I want direction in my life. I have chronic depression and have for years. I want to have something in my life that will motivate to get out and face the world and to be a good person.

I have already been married and divorced. There are real reasons fir that if you want me to go into it I will.

I've been horrible, nasty, deceitful. I've told lies, I've have had sex before marriage, I've drunk alcohol under age and taken drugs. I was a horrible teenager! Very rebellious. Will I be forgiven by Jesus and god for these things or am I going to hell?
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  #26  
Old 8th May 2012, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
Will I be forgiven by Jesus and god for these things or am I going to hell?
At some point one comes to learn, and truly believe, that God is of unlimited grace, unbridled compassion.

It may take a lifetime to actually internalize this and live it out in relationship with others.

Be patient with yourself.
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  #27  
Old 8th May 2012, 10:00 AM
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Thank you very much! What are the opinions on divorce? At 21 I was a full time carer to my husband who had a brain injury. He'd fallen off a 25ft wall onto his head and shoulders and had to have part of his frontal lobes removed. As a result he became a different person and was very violent. I divorced him in 2007. Not long before I met my current partner.
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  #28  
Old 8th May 2012, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
Thank you very much! What are the opinions on divorce? At 21 I was a full time carer to my husband who had a brain injury. He'd fallen off a 25ft wall onto his head and shoulders and had to have part of his frontal lobes removed. As a result he became a different person and was very violent. I divorced him in 2007. Not long before I met my current partner.
What are your thoughts on divorce? And not just in the abstract, but here in this particular situation?

Are you looking for validation of something you've done you regret?

Or confirmation of self-shame to further needlessly beat yourself up?

There's much good that you can do with your choices going forward. Much healing you can bring.

What do you want to do from where you area?

Last edited by FundiMentalist; 8th May 2012 at 10:10 AM.
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bling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond reputebling has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by InThePinc View Post
Wow thank you very much! I'm a complete beginner in this and I have a lot of questions and probably a lot of stupid ones. I feel I want direction in my life. I have chronic depression and have for years. I want to have something in my life that will motivate to get out and face the world and to be a good person.

I have already been married and divorced. There are real reasons fir that if you want me to go into it I will.

I've been horrible, nasty, deceitful. I've told lies, I've have had sex before marriage, I've drunk alcohol under age and taken drugs. I was a horrible teenager! Very rebellious. Will I be forgiven by Jesus and god for these things or am I going to hell?
I have read all the posts and really appreciate you hanging in there through some unloving comments by some that call themselves “Christians”.

I have lengthy explanations to everyone of your OP questions and would be happy to present them, but like most agnostics the real “questions” are much more personal and are cries for help.

I hope and pray you are seeing a doctor and are on medication for depression.

As for the way you were and what all you have done, that is the past. You may see your past as truly tragic above forgiveness, but I have taught the Bible in prison and all I can say: “Is that it?”

All that “bad” stuff just becomes part of your witness (that is what the Apostle Paul did with it [Paul called Himself the “chief of sinners” and he was bad!]).

You really need Christ himself to come up alongside you, listen to you, hug you, work with you, guide you one step at a time and really Love you unconditionally and unselfishly (not expecting anything from you, but to allow Him to Love you). That is the way it is to be working today, with truly Christ like people allowing Christ to live through them to serve you (I’ve got the feeling you have not met a true Christ like person). Sometimes you have to look among the really needy people to find a person unselfishly serving others (not looking for the praise of men, or to “payback” anything or earn some position). They seem to be few and far between in the West, but there are some around.

Briefly as far as your question about Homosexuals: I have friends that are homosexual and are far stronger than I am about controlling their behavior, so I have learned from them. When we do discuss whether homosexuality is a sin, we just sit down together and study scripture, but we also study other “bigger” concerns. Remember they are not going to be judged on what I think, but God can hold it against me what I think. The questions we consider early on are: “If it is wrong am I willing to stop? If I am willing to stop, how do you change? Do I want to be different then the way I am now? Do I see a benefit to being different? What have others done?
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Old 8th May 2012, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bling View Post
I have read all the posts and really appreciate you hanging in there through some unloving comments by some that call themselves “Christians”.
Consider dismissing the theology, opinions, ... of mean people.
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