Paul the false Apostle!!!

beforHim · #31 5th May 2012, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by stan1953

Bottom line though.... I said Jesus, NOT Paul.

Originally Posted by OpenDoor

All Scripture is God breathed.

Originally Posted by stan1953

So do you have a point to make?

I just think that OpenDoor missed your point is all. Obviously you were reiterating to 2 Know Him the point that Jesus used harsh words, but OpenDoor saw something that looked like selective use of scripture, which is all too easily jumped on. Anyway, I figured this would be good to clear up before we start fighting with each other, instead of against the enemy.

EDIT: I noticed how it could seem as though I were calling 2 know him "the enemy". I wasn't meaning it that way- I was just using the idion (ie "the enemy") in the general, "christianese" way. Cool

= = =

So far we have just what I said: people have quoted even Jesus seemingly contradicting Himself! Yikes. As Paul said, we truly are of all people to be pitied. . .

I do agree with 2 Know Him, if we had to choose, then jesus would be the guy to listen to. But if communication from God does come to us in all those books, then actually, given the trinity, ALL those words of ALL those books are Jesus words.

Harry3142 · #32 5th May 2012, 01:27 PM

2 Know Him-

To accept the Scripture of the New Testament is to accept every book in the New Testament as equally inspired of God. There is no 'sliding scale' with which you can judge some of the books as divinely inspired, others as possibly inspired, and still others as books to be ignored, or even fought against. It's an all-or-nothing decision that you must make. Either you accept the entire New Testament, or you accept none of it.

As for your telling us that we should be judgemental towards whatever government we live under, that is not the assignment that Jesus Christ gave us to do. In fact, I have found in my past dealings with those who want to concentrate on condemning others, that those same people violently object to the very work which Christ assigned to us:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you visited me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer. 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (The Gospel of St. Matthew 25:31-46,NIV)

There's our assignment, told to us by Jesus Christ himself. And he worded it as an order, not a suggestion. If we do what Christ himself told us that he expects of us, we won't have time to sit around judging how evil a government is. We'll be too busy working.

stan1953 · #33 5th May 2012, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by beforHim

I just think that OpenDoor missed your point is all. Obviously you were reiterating to 2 Know Him the point that Jesus used harsh words, but OpenDoor saw something that looked like selective use of scripture, which is all too easily jumped on. Anyway, I figured this would be good to clear up before we start fighting with each other, instead of against the enemy.

EDIT: I noticed how it could seem as though I were calling 2 know him "the enemy". I wasn't meaning it that way- I was just using the idion (ie "the enemy") in the general, "christianese" way. Cool
= = =

So far we have just what I said: people have quoted even Jesus seemingly contradicting Himself! Yikes. As Paul said, we truly are of all people to be pitied. . .

I do agree with 2 Know Him, if we had to choose, then jesus would be the guy to listen to. But if communication from God does come to us in all those books, then actually, given the trinity, ALL those words of ALL those books are Jesus words.

Thanks for your concern. I just didn't want to assume anything, hence my query.

Nekoda · #34 5th May 2012, 07:08 PM

One might think this would be a very easy area to clarify.

If one accepts that all kings, powers, governments etc are "appointed by God", then one must accept that all the brutal governments, kings, dictators etc of history are "God's anointed"

Including Nero's - who was in power at the time of Paul's epistle to the Romans, and who Paul appeals to in Acts to save himself.

But here is what God says:

Hosea 8:4They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

Psalm 2 (whole chapter)

God mocks these rulers who stand against Him and His anointed

Paul's epistle to the Romans must have been absolutely music to Nero's ears - for now he could claim divine authority for all his deeds and atrocities.

Rome's church also follows this example. Don't agree with the Pope? With the church? Torture them, murder them - make life hell for them. This applies to both Jews and protesting Christians and anyone else who doesn't agree. All with God's approval if you accept Romans 13.

stan1953 · #35 5th May 2012, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Nekoda

One might think this would be a very easy area to clarify.

If one accepts that all kings, powers, governments etc are "appointed by God", then one must accept that all the brutal governments, kings, dictators etc of history are "God's anointed"

Including Nero's - who was in power at the time of Paul's epistle to the Romans, and who Paul appeals to in Acts to save himself.

But here is what God says:

Hosea 8:4They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

Psalm 2 (whole chapter)

God mocks these rulers who stand against Him and His anointed

Paul's epistle to the Romans must have been absolutely music to Nero's ears - for now he could claim divine authority for all his deeds and atrocities.

Rome's church also follows this example. Don't agree with the Pope? With the church? Torture them, murder them - make life hell for them. This applies to both Jews and protesting Christians and anyone else who doesn't agree. All with God's approval if you accept Romans 13.

The problem with rational is that if you start off with faulty rational, then you end up in a irrational state. Using human understanding and human reasoning, especially if it is flawed, will only result in your suppositions being suspect and your views opposing God himself. Just like a carpenter, better to measure twice and cut once.
Let God be true, and ALL men be liars.

IisJustMe · #36 6th May 2012, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Nekoda

Hosea 8:4They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

Refers only to Israel. Has nothing to do with the rest of the governments. The reason God said this to Israel was because they were His chosen people and demanded a human king when God was their King. Then they allowed worthless, sinful abominations to occupy the throne of Israel. Don't lift verses out of context to use them to your own ends.

Originally Posted by Nekoda

God mocks these rulers who stand against Him and His anointed

Paul's epistle to the Romans must have been absolutely music to Nero's ears - for now he could claim divine authority for all his deeds and atrocities.

You're assuming Nero read it, which is doubtful. As for giving him the right to claim divine authority, if he was not following God's will, then he lost the ability to make that claim. If God establishes an authority, it is inherently beholden to Him, and therefore must obey Him and model itself in His image, or it stands against God and is no longer valid. Shame you didn't think of that before posting.

Nekoda · #37 6th May 2012, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by IisJustMe

Refers only to Israel. Has nothing to do with the rest of the governments. The reason God said this to Israel was because they were His chosen people and demanded a human king when God was their King. Then they allowed worthless, sinful abominations to occupy the throne of Israel. Don't lift verses out of context to use them to your own ends.

It matters not what government the Hosea verse refers to. I quoted it because according to Paul - all governments are instituted by God. Clearly, according to Hosea (and Psalms 2 - which refers to the government at the time of Messiah) - they are not.

Originally Posted by IisJustMe

You're assuming Nero read it, which is doubtful. As for giving him the right to claim divine authority, if he was not following God's will, then he lost the ability to make that claim. If God establishes an authority, it is inherently beholden to Him, and therefore must obey Him and model itself in His image, or it stands against God and is no longer valid. Shame you didn't think of that before posting.

*If* God establishes an authority? But doesn't God, according to Paul, establish every government or governing power structure? How then can you say "if"?

Another question. Did God secretly want shadrach meshach and abednego to worship the idol Nebuchadnezzar set up?

Did God set up Babylon so that every decree and law it made - including the worship of an idol - was to be followed?

dollarsbill · #38 6th May 2012, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by 2 know him

I first came to challenge Paul's Apostleship when I came to clearly see that Paul erred on a doctrine that he Propagated in Romans 13: as he stated governments are from God; Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works(who killed Jesus, Paul, many of the Apostles, and thousands of Christians by throwing them to the Lions? NOT A TERROR TO GOOD WORKS?), but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the samePaul didn't receive praise from the same, so he must have been evil: right?)
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Paul's teachings directly contradicted Samuel's: which he claimed came from God; 1Sa 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should NOT reign/RULE over them.

Not only did Samuel state that God would not reign over them through kings, but Satan offered Jesus control of Governments: if he would worship him; Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms/governments of the world in a moment of time.
Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luk 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

We have been taught that the bible is the word of God and that it includes all the writings of Paul. But where did we get this idea from?

A few hundred years ago, men put a bunch of books together, which they believed were inspired by God and presto: we have been taught ever since that this is the infallible word of God.

Now, before you object, I challenge you to read the chapter written in the following link: Paul the false apostle which more thoroughly challenges Paul's Apostleship and then I will be willing to enter into more thorough discussions on this topic.

To reject Paul's letters leaves you between a rock and a hard place. That's not good.

2 Peter 3:15-16 (NASB)
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Nekoda · #39 6th May 2012, 04:56 AM

Originally Posted by dollarsbill

To reject Paul's letters leaves you between a rock and a hard place. That's not good.

2 Peter 3:15-16 (NASB)
15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

The true author of this epistle has been in doubt for a long time:

Authorship of the Petrine epistles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

LostMarbels · #40 6th May 2012, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by Nekoda

The true author of this epistle has been in doubt for a long time:

Authorship of the Petrine epistles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you would look at all the words in BLUE you would see this is an entire paragraph explaining itself. Instead of one verse supposedly condemning Paul. The words in BLUE are (conjunctions).

Conjunction (grammar)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In grammar, a conjunction (abbreviated conj or cnj) is a part of speech that connects two words, sentences, phrases or clauses together.

So.... lets give it a try, shall we?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Also... if you read verse 16 carefully, you can see this demonstrated in this very thread.