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29th May 2012, 07:48 AM
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Reps: 359,274,841,238,434,688 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by trackstacks  I think John Nelson Darby came up with it when he created this idea of dispensations. He and Scofield birthed this idea, and they started the Dallas Theological Seminary and thats where many protestent evangalicals are taught. The second advent and the rapture are the same thing. There are more "proof texts" for the veneration of Mary, the first christian than a separate pretrib rapture event.
How about you cite these Scriptures so we can see your evidence? |
29th May 2012, 07:50 AM
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Reps: 190,933,264,192,296,544 (power: 190,933,264,192,304) | | Originally Posted by Lik3 Does the rapture come before the Tribulation?
Matt 24 " Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.. he will gather His elect".
Hmmm ... I would say "after".
in Christ,
Bob |
31st May 2012, 06:52 PM
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Reps: 8,469,378,603,362,012 (power: 8,469,378,603,364) | | Originally Posted by Lik3 Does the rapture come before the Tribulation?
Yes it does. The tribulation is the period where the Earth and everyone on it will go through a time of torment, torture, and persecution. The antichrist/devil will be in control of the world and anyone not on his side, will be persecuted. This is also when the plagues of Revelation will take place.
The rapture happens before this, because the tribulation is not for the church, it is for the unbelievers and those who didn't make it in the rapture. It is like the last call for those to repent and come to God, anything else you have heard is otherwise not true.
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Last edited by Drayzon; 31st May 2012 at 06:59 PM.
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1st June 2012, 02:35 PM
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Reps: 44,754,733,254,894,616 (power: 44,754,733,254,896) | | | Wow! Just imagine, what if the Rapture was later in the Tribulation, even near the end. We could be in the tribulation and not know it!
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"So I saw in my dream, that just as Christian came up with the cross, his burden loosed from off his shoulders, and fell from off his back, and began to tumble, and so continued to do till it came to the mouth of the sepulchre, where it fell in, and I saw it no more."
(From: The Pilgrim's Progress, Part 1, the 3rd Stage) |
5th June 2012, 01:37 PM
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Reps: 3,427,607,954,017,775,104 (power: 3,427,607,954,017,780) | | Originally Posted by knee-v The passage that you cite as having come from Ephraim the Syrian comes from a text called Latin Pseudo-Ephraim (as opposed to the Syriac and Greek ones). The Latin version, which is where this "rapture" text comes from, is not the same text as the earlier Pseudo-Ephraims, and it borrows much from a work called Pseudo-Methodius. Whatever the ultimate source is of Pseudo-Ehpraim, the Latin text (the one from which our quote is translated) is a rather late document and is markedly different from the Syriac and Greek versions of that document, and has other sources affecting its text. Thus it is not correct to say that Ephraim the Syrian said anything about a pretrib rapture. It didn't come from a text called Latin Pseudo-Ephrain
William Bousset, one of the greatest scholars on ancient eschatology, concluded in his book The Antichrist Legend that it was written by Ephraem the Syrian before A.D. 373.1 Andrew R. Anderson wrote in his book Alexander's Gate that he accepted the early date as being valid.
1. William Bousset, The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane (London: Hutchinson & Co., 1896)
2. Andrew R. Anderson, Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5. (Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932)  |
5th June 2012, 01:40 PM
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Reps: 3,427,607,954,017,775,104 (power: 3,427,607,954,017,780) | | Originally Posted by BobRyan Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.. he will gather His elect".
Hmmm ... I would say "after".
in Christ,
Bob
In Matt 24 he is not talking about the church as there was no "church" at that time.
Jesus was answering a question that concerned the coming of Israel's promised Kingdom, not the coming of Christ for His Church. The diciples knew nothing about this "church" |
18th June 2012, 04:51 PM
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Reps: 38,415,843,668,655,128 (power: 38,415,843,668,656) | | Originally Posted by Captainkate1 In Matt 24 he is not talking about the church as there was no "church" at that time.
Jesus was answering a question that concerned the coming of Israel's promised Kingdom, not the coming of Christ for His Church. The diciples knew nothing about this "church"
Are you familiar with Apostolistic succession? Jesus founded his church on the apostles(specifically peter) I would advice you look into this before you come to the conclusion that the disciples knew nothing about his church.  |
18th June 2012, 05:43 PM
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Reps: 359,274,841,238,434,688 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by BobRyan Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.. he will gather His elect".
Hmmm ... I would say "after".
in Christ,
Bob
Well, you could say that if you want, but you'd be wrong. What is spoken of in Matthew 24:31 is the Jewish remnant and Gentiles who have come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation. The Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 bears no resemblance to the Matthew passage, so they aren't referring to the same event. Paul writes of the Rapture. Jesus is speaking to a Jewish audience, and therefore the Jewish perspective of the end of the Tribulation.
Where does Paul mention the darkening of the sun (Matt. 24:29), the moon not giving its light (Matt. 24:29), the stars falling from the sky (Matt. 24:29), the powers of the heavens being shaken (Matt. 24:29), all the tribes of the earth mourning (Matt. 24:30), all the world seeing the coming of the Son of Man (Matt. 24:30), or God sending forth angels (Matt. 24:31)?
Notice what happens when you examine both passages carefully. In Matthew the Son of Man comes on the clouds, while in 1 Thessalonians 4 the ascending believers are in them. In Matthew the angels gather the elect; in 1 Thessalonians the Lord Himself (note the emphasis) gathers the believers. Thessalonians only speaks of the voice of the archangel. In the Olivet Discourse nothing is said about a resurrection, while in the latter text it is the central point. In the two passages the differences in what will take place prior to the appearance of Christ is striking. Moreover, the order of ascent is absent from Matthew in spite of the fact that it is the central part of the epistle.
In addition to the above differences, the order of events are different between the two passages. In 1Thessalonians 4 believers are gathered in the air and taken to heaven, while in Matthew 24 they are gathered after Christ's arrival to earth. In order for us to establish the view that Matthew 24:31 refers to the Rapture, we must reconcile the dissimilarities, not simply point to a few similarities. Thus, the differences in the two passages support the contention that they speak of two distinct events.
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18th June 2012, 05:54 PM
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Reps: 1,567,274,204,750,067,968 (power: 1,567,274,204,750,073) | | Originally Posted by Lik3 Does the rapture come before the Tribulation?
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:24
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40
Jesus Christ's first coming is what I believe is the Rapture... We will be with him at his second coming to rule with him a thousand years. The time in which Jesus comes is a secret only known to the Heavenly Father. Jesus gives us a hint that it will happen in a time in which we think not. In normal times... Like it was in Sodom and Gomorrah and in the times of Noah... Everyone was going about in their everyday life and pow... Like lightning... The day of reckoning came upon them.
The Doctrine of Imminency....
Imminency, as it relates to Bible prophecy, simply means that the return of Jesus Christ for the Church can happen at any moment. No warning signs will indicate a short-term countdown. We as Christians remain on alert 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
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20th June 2012, 06:21 AM
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Reps: 428,984,518,853,331,520 (power: 0) | | | The Scriptures used to support the commonly taught "rapture theory" (which has been around only since the mid 1800s) do not say when it will happen. That information has been inserted by supporters of that theory. There will be a "catching away" just before Jesus establishes His "Millennial Kingdom". Those taken will be those who have not turned to God (see Ps. 37). Then Jesus will reign on this Earth with us for a thousand years (see Rev. 20). At the end of His Millennial Kingdom Believers will be removed from this Earth and Satan and the non-Believers will be cast back down to Earth for the 3 1/2 year "Great tribulation". After that God will bring it all to an end, the judgements will take place, He will create a New Earth (which will be our eternal home) and heavens (space) and eternity will go on. See Rev. 21. | | |
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