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29th April 2012, 05:39 PM
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Reps: 29,681,098,289,364,560 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Jared R (Sigh.) I was working on a substantial post when I timed out. I was responding to something Michie said about Protestants seeming to possess more peace about their faith. The gist of it was that a Protestant's peace comes from his belief in assurance of salvation. Compare this to St. Teresa of Avila who was terribly afraid of hell and received visions of her own potential damnation. Teresa, as any reasonable believer-in-eternity would, dreaded the loss of her soul, and yet she possessed a supernatural peace.
My point is that fear of hell and trembling for our souls are not bad things (they are even urged on us by Jesus and by His saints) as long as they don't stem from diseases of the mind. I wouldn't worry about the peace that Protestants seem to possess, because the psychological peace that comes from the absence of an uncomfortable idea is only valuable to the degree that the uncomfortable idea is false. In this case, the uncomfortable idea (that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling) is resoundingly and incontrovertibly true. The comfortable idea of eternal security is of no value to us because we know that potential to turn away from heaven is really, really real.
I often hear that Catholicism is too fear-based. I don't know. Others may have a kind of irrational or unhelpful fear, but I have sincerely prayed for more fear. Too often I find myself complacent and presume that I will die in God's friendship. If I loved Him more, I would fear losing Him more. I know I should dread hell with every fiber of my being. That is not an unhealthy desire. Rather it's the counsel of the saints. I was just listening to a sermon by St. Alphonsus de Liguori "On the Eternity of Hell" in which he urged the soul to think often of eternity and his final end, and to dread the loss of that end. We must do everything in our power to avoid mortal sin. "When eternal happiness is at stake, no security is too great."
I think your analysis is, in part wrong .I think Catholics are depressed because they are not engaged in a personal relationship with God ,but one dictated by a distant power. It is this personal relationship ,which brings joy. Also many are not blase about their salvation. | 
29th April 2012, 05:47 PM
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Reps: 82,853,159,499,166,768 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by underheaven I think your analysis is, in part wrong .I think Catholics are depressed because they are not engaged in a personal relationship with God ,but one dictated by a distant power. It is this personal relationship ,which brings joy. Also many are not blase about their salvation.
Very true. | 
29th April 2012, 09:55 PM
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Reps: 629,269,497,390,820,864 (power: 629,269,497,390,831) | | Originally Posted by QuantaCura When it comes to fasts and whatnot, I've been told by Orthodox people that they don't bind under pain of sin--ie if you can't do them, it's ok. In other words, in the East they set the ideal as a goal, but its ok if you fall short. The Western tradition marks the bare minimum one can do without sinning, but exhorts one to do more if able. In both cases, the "difficulty" is what one makes of it.
I think there is some truth to this, but I tend to think that putting out the maximum and allowing individuals to privately or with their priest work out what is appropriate for them, is more successful than the Western tendency to always give the minimum required. (And this is something common, I think, to Catholicism and Protestantism.)
That seems to lead to an attitude which says things like "do I really need to get baptized/take the Eucharist/join a congregation/whatever to be saved?" "Do we really need a liturgy or sermon that is theologically substantial in order to benefit from the Eucharist?" "Isn't this Mass valid even if the music is pretty bad light rock with banal lyrics?". And then "the priest./pastor/leader can't tell me I should be doing more than what is required for my spiritual development, I just need the minimum required to be saved/not in mortal sin/whatever."
It seems to me that there is a link between setting out the minimum as what people should do and people focusing on that as their goal.
__________________ Rise, heart, thy lord is risen. Sing his praise
Without delays,
Who takes thee by the hand, that thou likewise
With him may'st rise:
That, as his death calcinèd thee to dust,
His life may make thee gold, and, much more, just. George Herbert | 
30th April 2012, 12:45 AM
|  | not a sissy 30 
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Reps: 84,808,050,014,846,512 (power: 84,808,050,014,857) | | Originally Posted by MKJ
I think there is some truth to this, but I tend to think that putting out the maximum and allowing individuals to privately or with their priest work out what is appropriate for them, is more successful than the Western tendency to always give the minimum required. (And this is something common, I think, to Catholicism and Protestantism.)
That seems to lead to an attitude which says things like "do I really need to get baptized/take the Eucharist/join a congregation/whatever to be saved?" "Do we really need a liturgy or sermon that is theologically substantial in order to benefit from the Eucharist?" "Isn't this Mass valid even if the music is pretty bad light rock with banal lyrics?". And then "the priest./pastor/leader can't tell me I should be doing more than what is required for my spiritual development, I just need the minimum required to be saved/not in mortal sin/whatever."
It seems to me that there is a link between setting out the minimum as what people should do and people focusing on that as their goal.
The reverse would be scrupulosity, where people are so worried about not living up to a standard that it interferes in their relationship with God, or alternatively deciding for themselves that any number of 'rules' don't apply too them.
In both Catholic and Orthodox cases the reality is that people are working out (hopefully with guidance) what is best for their spiritual growth. I think the Catholic way works better for me :-) I think I would feel pretty guilty in an unhealthy way if I were Orthodox.
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30th April 2012, 02:38 AM
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30th April 2012, 10:13 AM
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Reps: 12,182,269,959,018 (power: 12,182,269,961) | | Originally Posted by underheaven I am not afraid of God. Fear drives out love,and love drives out fear.
What I fear ,and you too if you really think about it ,is not God,who IS LOVE,and He sent his only son
to prove that to us ; no, what you fear, is yourself.
The distance between your lack of love and faith in Him ,is what makes you afraid. Deep down inside,
you have to face the problems which keep you from knowing this loving God. Only when you are ready
to accept the Love that Christ offers,will you be saved from this false idea .
What in fact you and many do ,is to mix up the Heart's purpose ,which is love ,and sacrifice for yours
and others good,and the Intellect's purpose which is to examine evidence,which informs the heart.
What you see when you are hurt ,ill,lost ,war etc .and blame it on God,
is in fact the consequence of mixing up the roles of the heart and intellect. What happens when you
stop loving your 'neighbour',honouring your parents,ignoring God is that you suffer the consequences
of being seperated from Him,and his light and love. You then apply false Logic[intellect] to your situation ,
and say God is angry with me ,you etc. But that is not true.
God has set up His Creation to work according to a preset of laws,like this computer is set to laws.
We are part of this interactive Living Created World,and when we break those laws an automatic
crisis situation ensues for the individual,and sometimes for the society.This happens whether you
believe or not,it is automatic,and punishment ensued,automatically.
However in order to be really just, God set up a way for those who believe in HIM,and work with
him ,not against Him to be saved from the negative consequences of this 'automatic system' ;
He sent Jesus.
There were always those who loved Him,and had a relationship with Him ,as we know in the bible,
but many were condemned automatically to hell. No one is condemned to hell who follow Jesus.
He bypasses the default position ;He is the Way ,and not to be feared but loved. 
I wasn't talking about Jesus I was talking about the Father. Matthew 10:28 - "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Isaiah 66:3b-4a - "They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations, so I also will choose harsh treatment for them and will bring upon them what they dread." This tells us that those who delight in abominations are not fearing God but practicing sin and fearing things other than God. Proverbs 19:23 - "The fear of the Lord leads to life; then one rests content, untouched by trouble." Psalm 31:19 - "How great is your goodness which you have stored up for those who fear you, which you bestow in the sight of men on those who take refuge in you."
Proverbs 14:26-27 - "He who fears the Lord has a secure fortress, and for his children it will be a refuge. {27} The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death." I can be secure in the Lord if I fear Him and continue to do what is right. Luke 12:4–5 - "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." | 
30th April 2012, 11:25 AM
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Reps: 35,598,175,595,356,336 (power: 35,598,175,595,361) | | Originally Posted by Gwendolyn Because of hell.
True. Also because the Roman Catholic church was the first true Church and the only true church. | 
30th April 2012, 09:41 PM
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Reps: 629,269,497,390,820,864 (power: 629,269,497,390,831) | | Originally Posted by Assisi The reverse would be scrupulosity, where people are so worried about not living up to a standard that it interferes in their relationship with God, or alternatively deciding for themselves that any number of 'rules' don't apply too them.
In both Catholic and Orthodox cases the reality is that people are working out (hopefully with guidance) what is best for their spiritual growth. I think the Catholic way works better for me :-) I think I would feel pretty guilty in an unhealthy way if I were Orthodox.
I can see why you might think this would make you feel guilty, but I haven't seen it much among the Orthodox in practice. I think it is because the "rules" are not presented as a binary choice, but as a continuous path to spiritual perfection. Trying to move too far along that path too quickly is not only not effective and seen as immature, it can be spiritually dangerous - a form of hubris that can lead to serious dangers. With that kind of teaching, people don't tend to feel guilt about taking the approach mandated by their own spiritual state and their priest or bishop's advice - and they do actually ask their advice and follow it.
__________________ Rise, heart, thy lord is risen. Sing his praise
Without delays,
Who takes thee by the hand, that thou likewise
With him may'st rise:
That, as his death calcinèd thee to dust,
His life may make thee gold, and, much more, just. George Herbert | 
1st May 2012, 01:49 AM
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Reps: 399,981,254,093,781,504 (power: 399,981,254,093,861) | | | Perhaps its because of the Eucharist. I mean, personally, every time I have considered leaving the Church, I always stay Catholic because of the Eucharist. It is the one thing that non-Catholics other than the Orthodox do not have.
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"We've had enough of exhortations to be silent! Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues. I see that the world is rotten because of silence." - Saint Catherine of Siena | 
1st May 2012, 04:53 AM
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Reps: 29,681,098,289,364,560 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by MKJ I can see why you might think this would make you feel guilty, but I haven't seen it much among the Orthodox in practice. I think it is because the "rules" are not presented as a binary choice, but as a continuous path to spiritual perfection. Trying to move too far along that path too quickly is not only not effective and seen as immature, it can be spiritually dangerous - a form of hubris that can lead to serious dangers. With that kind of teaching, people don't tend to feel guilt about taking the approach mandated by their own spiritual state and their priest or bishop's advice - and they do actually ask their advice and follow it.
You have hit on something which in my opinion is the fundamental error of the RCC. This black and
white rule making 'forces' spiritual progress,which in reality creates terrible hypocrisy,so that people
are, including the priest hood pretending to be 'perfect and all knowing',when in fact as you say it is
a process,and any good teacher,takes their pupil 'along' both intellectually as well as emotionally.
Pretending to be perfect is very tiring ,creates hypocrisy,and seperates. It means that the outer
self ,becomes more important,than the inner hidden one. So we have people who willl not have a
relationship outside of marriage [in the church] ,but will look secretly at pornography. What I ask
is the more damaging for a soul. I know which one is ,without doubt. And So on.
We create lies within lies Another would be the public burial of someone like Pinochet .In fact
where does it end ?
''When the inner is like the outer ,and the outer like the inner '' in the RCC
Last edited by underheaven; 1st May 2012 at 05:41 AM.
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