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Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.

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Old 26th April 2012, 04:13 PM
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Idea Global vs Local Flood: Perhaps there is a way to have Unison Between the Two

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I was writing due to how I have often seen alot of battles that've gone down over the years, be it between Young Earth Creationists or Old Earth Creationists or Secular Evolutionists on how whether or not a flood ever occurred on the Earth---and for those that do, the battle often seems to go for whether it was a global or a local one.

Although I am currently an Old Earth Creationist, I grew up within YEC circles and felt that many things they noted seemed to make sense...and thus, I have never really been 100% sold out to either one spectrum at all points. Alot of times, I feel as if I'm a bit of a oddity whenever the battles rage on and I'm simply trying to find truth and accuracy..one side saying that the Flood HAD to be Global /all encompassing in scope while another sides says that it could only be local. Though I know you've said you're a Theistic Evolutionists, Your thoughts seem to be more so in line with aspects of Old Earth Creationism

But in wrestling on the subject, it occurred to me that perhaps both sides often polarize over issues that are not really necessary. When I consider the Flood, I think it can be both LOCAL and Global. For myself, discussing "localized floods" is to be taken as meaning what Noah experienced LOCALLY was apart of what may've been occurring GLOBALLY if the mechnanisms that God used (i.e. glaciers melting, Polar Ice Caps, Ice Age, Tsunami, etc) happen to have set off chain reactions that affected other parts of the planet simultaneously and resulted in local floods of immense size/scope happening GLOBALLY.


IMHO, there's more than enough scientific evidence showing that at some point---whether that be Post-Ice Age or Pre---there were many floods of IMMENSE magnitude around the world in many areas....and that is the context of "Global Flood", which many scientists have been more than open to when seeing just how much damage could have occurred due to that. If wishing to discuss the issue of water covering the entire areas where civilization occurred, films have been made on the issue....be it with "2012" and the Mega-Tsumamis occurring due to what played out with Earth Crust Displacement Theory or the film "The Day After Tommorrow" where Global Warming led to immesne problems with weather conditions and the sea level rose immensely to flood many areas. One could even consider the film "Water World" with Kevin Costner...where the setting of the film is the distant future and the background is one very much connected with the concept of Global Warming since the polar ice caps have completely melted, and the sea level has risen many thousands of feet, covering virtually all the land...


It also seems, IMHO, that global flooding can be seen in the clear flood legends from other parts of the world....as many of them apart from the Biblical text describe flooding happening rapidly rather than gradually..and as it concerns what I've said in seeing Flooding in a Global aspect within the form of multiple localized floods--either all together or back -to -back (ripple effect) and prolonging devestation in certain areas while making it possible to reach other places as they catch the tail end of things. ...with each localized flood doing extensive damage to the world's of others while those others may've never realized that what they experienced perhaps had its connections in something else that may've happened locally.

Surely, if Tsumami Waves from an underwater Earthquake (with earthquakes happening ALL The time/in differing levels) could damage Japan Severely...and yet still be felt in California or other parts of the U.S Coast..and it has been the case that Super WAVES OF EVEN More immense magnitude have occurred to do far more damage/wash inland very far, there's no logical reason (IMHO ) to assume that it could not have happened before. Science shows that such things could have been going on for a long time, if not in more severe ways depending on where the planet was at ecologically at the moment. ...and as many have even said that Super-Quakes have only occurred on certain conditions and at specific faults with devestating consequences, its hard for me to throw that out.

Something else I must also consider is how today we see a surprising number of cities existing deep underwater. Off of the western coast of India a city has been discovered recently, which is one hundred and twenty feet under water in the Gulf of Cambay. It measures five miles long by two miles wide. Things such as human remains, tools, pottery etc. have been recovered and confirm that this was indeed a very old human civilization. Yet another underwater city has been discovered off of the southeastern coast of India near Mahabalipuram at about twenty five feet deep. Ancient artifacts and carvings and perhaps even some kind of religious temple has been discovered. It has been estimated to be five thousand years old. Another one can be found off of the Coast of Japan, as it concerns a massive temple hundreds of ft. deep. One must wonder how all of those cities that used to be where others lived came to be so deep under the waters...



Some say that all of the stories of Global Floods around the world are simply a matter of a Flood described in one culture being located in the area of the Middle East or Africa somehow ..and then later, a survivor came from that area left and somehow reached the Native Americans to share his story, as they have their own version of when a Great Flood covered the entire earth.

I disagree with that, though, as it'd be more logical that perhaps the same thing was occurring all around the world...

With Native American stories of the Flood, they've been very fascinating to see how they described what occurred---and for reference, one can go online/investigate the following under their respective titles:
No one expects others to check out every resource...as its there just in case anyone would like to do their own investigation. From where I stand, how can one explain the worldwide dominance of stories of this kind of catastrophe, if they did not have a common basis? A common origin lends to the Biblical model, according to which the flood story would be spread from Asia Minor by the few survivors of the flood as they repopulated the earth....and a more practical orgin would be that the Flood occurred world-wide in a series of massive flooding in many areas while the Biblical text itself was focused on discussing the Flood occurring within their own area that had (in their mind) a Global effect on many things, whereas other cultures would have been experiencing similar things as well.


And on the issue of others experiencing floods all over, as was noted in the film "The Day After Tommorrow", it seems really logical to believe there may have been many floods. Seriously, the volume of ice is so large that if the Greenland ice sheet melted, it would cause sea levels to rise six meters (20 ft) all around the world. Additionally, f the Antarctic ice sheet melted, sea levels would rise up to 65 meters (210 ft). And if the many Ice Ages that the planet has gone through has seen such, what would be ANY different with other cultures/parts of human civilization near those areas where the caps were close to seeing the same....and then afterward either staying where they were/passing their stories down the ages or simply spreading out to other areas and remembering what happened before?

Something to consider, as it concerns the Biblical Flood account, is that note is that if examining the topography of the Persian Gulf, Iran, Arabia, the Strait of Hormuz and the proximal Indian Ocean with the continental shelf, one will noticed that the shallow seas cover the Persian Gulf, the Strait of Hormuz (Bandar Abbas in Iran to the northern tip of Oman.). That specific narrow strait was likely a land bridge during the Ice Age when sea levels were low enough to expose the Bering Strait Land Bridge and a land connection of Ireland, Britain, France, and Denmark. The height of the Ice Age lowered the sea levels to expose the Persian Gulf to a dry wide flat valley with a river running down the centre. The Strait of Hormuz was dry and kept Indian Ocean seawater out of that expansive plain. at some point the land outside of the Strait of Hormuz was a shallow continental shelf. Later, there was a deep trench like the one off the coast of Ice Age Florida. As sea levels rose from 12,000 to 11,000 BCE, the narrow continental shelf water rose first, and then flooded across the Land Bridge of Hormuz (Bandar Abbas to Oman). As the water flowed and eroded the higher land of the land bridge, the flow increased. At this point, it can be speculated that a major Richter 9 quake in a zone of common major earthquakes could have gone down..and this woud've fractured the Hormuz Land Bridge opening the floodgates that filled the entire Persian-Arabian broad tectonic valley near This huge flood with an added tsunami would send water beyond the current northern shoreline of the Persian Gulf into the Mesopotamian valley.

It has already been established by many that people had been living there since 70,000 BCE...and when considering all of what has been noted, its more than reasonable to conclude that this flood inundated their "world" as they perceived it, with the Semites, Elamites, and Sumerians telling/retelling their story long afterward. Perhaps each story was of a different family. ..which, of coursem would lead to what we have with Gilgamesh and what followed later in the account of Noah's Flood. Moreover, as Ice Glaciers would've enabled such to occur in the area Noah lived, much of humanity may've been located in certain areas rather than all over the world---and when the same occurred to them, its more than reasonable to assume they moved/migrated to other areas remembering the same kind of experiences that all happened simultaneously when the earth was undergoing change...

Alternatives to the Ice Age raised Sea Levels, Persian Gulf Flood with or without a huge quake. Possibly, it may've been the case that there was a huge Tsunami as big as the Indian Ocean Quake of December 2004 that may have worsened the situation. Its established that there was a major End Ice Age flood that rising waters of the Mediterranean overflowed the land bridge of the Bosporus separating land on which Istanbul stands on the west in Europe, and Oskudar on the East in Asia Minor.

Sea Water poured into what was (during the Height of the Ice Age) a fresh water lake (Black Lake). This rapidly poured seawater into the fresh water lake, killing fish, flooding the littoral of the entire shoreline of former Black Lake. Now it is the much larger and deeper Black Sea. Hundreds of thousands of people living along the old fresh water shoreline were drowned and another hundred thousand were forced to migrate rapidly to higher ground. Some might have even headed toward the Caucasus Mountains (say, Mount Ararat).

The other major flood was in Washington State at the end of the Ice Age. As the continental glacier began to melt, it formed huge lakes held back by a glacial Ice Dam. The Glacial Lake Missoula was held back by the Clark Fork and Columbia River Ice Dams. The Dam broke several times producing huge floods that covered most of Washington State and carved the gorge of the Columbia to the Pacific Ocean. Native Americans lived there at that time and they have legends of those floods in addition to geology proof of flood basalts across central Washington. Native Americans have several different stories about the Glacial Dam (Bridge of the Gods) and the devastating flood that destroyed many villages and animal herds. It was an American equivalent and probably occurred near the same time as the Mythical Noah's Flood.


Whether others agree or disagree, I'd love to hear what others feel on the matter...and whether or not you think reconcilliation can ever occur. Shalom
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Old 26th April 2012, 04:14 PM
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Idea For more info...

Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
Surely, if Tsumami Waves from an underwater Earthquake (with earthquakes happening ALL The time/in differing levels) could damage Japan Severely...and yet still be felt in California or other parts of the U.S Coast..and it has been the case that Super WAVES OF EVEN More immense magnitude have occurred to do far more damage/wash inland very far, there's no logical reason (IMHO ) to assume that it could not have happened before. Science shows that such things could have been going on for a long time, if not in more severe ways depending on where the planet was at ecologically at the moment. ...and as many have even said that Super-Quakes have only occurred on certain conditions and at specific faults with devestating consequences, its hard for me to throw that out.

Wanted to mention earlier that something else to consider is how many floods all over could've occurred due to precession of the Earth on its axis. To be clear, precession is seen when the toy a top is spinning and its axis of rotation begins to vary. As others have consistently attested, it wobbles. Similarly, the Earth wobbles on its axis about every 26,000 years due to the tilt of the Earth on its axis that causes seasonal changes. The Earth goes through one complete precession cycle in a period of approximately 25,800 years, during which the positions of stars as measured in the equatorial coordinate system will slowly change; the change is actually due to the change of the coordinates. Over this cycle the Earth's north axial pole moves from where it is now, within 1 of Polaris, in a circle around the ecliptic pole, with an angular radius of about 23.5 degrees (or approximately 23 degrees 27 arcminutes ). The shift is 1 degree in 72 years, where the angle is taken from the observer, not from the center of the circle.

Something also to consider is the Milkovitch Effect on climate...and as said best on Wikipedia (for a brief summary):
"Milankovitch Theory describes the collective effects of changes in the Earth's movements upon its climate--"

"Milanković mathematically theorised that variations in eccentricity, axial tilt, and precession of the Earth's orbit determined climatic patterns on Earth, resulting in 100,000-year ice age cycles of the Quaternary glaciation over the last few million years. The Earth's axis completes one full cycle of precession approximately every 26,000 years. At the same time, the elliptical orbit rotates, more slowly, leading to a 23,000-year cycle between the seasons and the orbit. In addition, the angle between Earth's rotational axis and the normal to the plane of its orbit moves from 22.1 degrees to 24.5 degrees and back again on a 41,000-year cycle. Currently, this angle is 23.44 degrees and is decreasing."
FOr myself, though other factors would be still need to be dealt with, it seems there are a lot of reasons to favor precession and Milkovitch effect as the cause of glacial periods and associated flooding which could've led to what many around the world saw with flooding of the planet in many places.






For some good articles on the issue that may be of note, one can go online here---from some of the same sites you referenced: One can also go here for more info. On a side note, if unaware, it seems that there are many scientists in the secular world who say that that there was a global flood on the red planet. Currently Mars is a dry, arid world, comparable in many respects to the desert regions we have on earth...and to me, I find that ironic in light of how inconsistent it seems. For Scientists believe in a global flood for Mars which is presently an arid desert, but do not believe in a global flood for Earth whose surface is 75% covered with water about two miles deep right now. From space, Earth appears like it is currently in a global flood...and I must say that it seems that the scientific establishment who has long been critical of a global flood on Earth has an extensive bias.



For more information, one can go online and look up the article under the name of "CNN: Giant flood channels uncovered on Mars And another entitled Scientists Find Largest Flood Channels in the Solar System
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Old 26th April 2012, 05:21 PM
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<edit>


G wropte:

On a side note, if unaware, it seems that there are many scientists in the secular world who say that that there was a global flood on the red planet. Currently Mars is a dry, arid world, comparable in many respects to the desert regions we have on earth...and to me, I find that ironic in light of how inconsistent it seems. For Scientists believe in a global flood for Mars which is presently an arid desert, but do not believe in a global flood for Earth
Um, Mars is much smaller than earth, so it has much less gravity, and so light molecules like water can leave the planet over time. <edit>
and I must say that it seems that the scientific establishment who has long been critical of a global flood on Earth has an extensive bias.
It might be useful for you to learn of the history of flood geology. In the late 1700's to early 1800's geologists - practically all of whom were Christians, saw more and more evidence that simply didn't work with a global flood. By 1830, the major geological societies, (again, made up almost entirely of Christians) had rejected flood geology. Since then more evidence has made flood geology even less tenable, and today practically all geologists reject flood geology - including literally hundreds of thousands of geologists who are Christians. If you are going to complain about some conspiracy or bias, you'll have to explain why the Christians were the first to reject flood geology, and why they reject it today.


<edit>

Papias
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Old 26th April 2012, 05:29 PM
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<edit>



G wropte:


Um, Mars is much smaller than earth, so it has much less gravity, and so light molecules like water can leave the planet over time. It's simple math that a freshman in high school can do.
Molecules like Water have not been shown to simply leave Mars over time....and part of what freshmen do is verifying facts on things they note. What most scientists have noted is that scientists think that the climate on Mars 3.5 billion years ago was similar to that of early Earth: warm and wet. But because of chemical reactions between Mars' carbon dioxide atmosphere and water, most of its carbon dioxide was used up forming carbonate rocks. Earth is big enough and active enough that it has plate tectonics which recycles this carbonate back to carbon dioxide. However, Mars is too small (10 times less massive than the earth) and does not have any recycling of its carbonate. Thus, Mars now has an atmosphere that's very thin and the temperature is very cold, and what water remains is either frozen in the Martian poles as permafrost or hidden in deep underground springs.


It might be useful for you to learn of the history of flood geology. In the late 1700's to early 1800's geologists - practically all of whom were Christians, saw more and more evidence that simply didn't work with a global flood. By 1830, the major geological societies, (again, made up almost entirely of Christians) had rejected flood geology. Since then more evidence has made flood geology even less tenable, and today practically all geologists reject flood geology - including literally hundreds of thousands of geologists who are Christians. If you are going to complain about some conspiracy or bias, you'll have to explain why the Christians were the first to reject flood geology, and why they reject it today.

If you're going to essentially quote slogans--as that's essentially the same thing all people against a global flood do when quoting "there's no evidence for it and scientists have shown otherwise" without really showing what the scientists have said....and I already gave reference earlier. Moreover, if you're going to make an accusation, it's appropriate to at least give verification of your claims. Already studied the flood geology history, although if you have any other theories/sources, by all means you can share


[quote]

<edit>
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Old 26th April 2012, 06:02 PM
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G wrote:

<edit>
Molecules like Water have not been shown to simply leave Mars over time....
Do you have a source for this, that applies to billions of years timescales?


Already studied the flood geology history, although if you have any other theories/sources, by all means you can share



OK. Do you then recall the name of the Protestant Minister who's recanting signaled that end of the last vestiges of respectable flood geology?

Again, one would need to show---based on credibility---who is or isn't the non-expert. For there are dozens of scientists (PHds) and geologists who support a Global Flood concept--just as there are others in equal force who disagree.
I'm certainly a non-expert, and unless you have a geology Ph.D. and have done published research, you are too. There certainly are not "others in equal force who disagree". Practically all geologists reject flood geology. Here is a statement by the Geological Society of America, representing literally over 20,000 geologists. There are plenty of additional statements issued rejecting flood geology by geological societies, and exactly zero such statements in support of flood geology. The best you'll be able to do is a find a few crackpots among the many thousands of geologists who agree with you.
Acceptance of deep time is not confined to academic science. If commercial geologists could find more fossil fuel
by interpreting
the rock record as having resulted from a single flood or otherwise encompassing no more than a
few thousand years, they would surely accept this unconventional view, but they do not.
In fact, these profitoriented
geologists have joined with academic researchers in refining the standard geologic time scale and bringing
to light the details of deep earth history.

http://www.kgslibrary.com/downloads/...05_Mar-Apr.pdf (see page 20)





Again, if you wish to quote experts--those you deem as such--by all means. I've already given out others here and it is no problem bringing out more. All I ask is that there be respect given in dealing with the OP topic, which thus far you avoided (IMHO)
OK. I agree that the idea of many floods is both more plausible than a single global flood, and is a compromise between the local/global positions. If the fact that all those floods happened at different times, along with other factual evidence is accepted, then the many flood position can even be fully consistent with the real world, unlike the global flood position.

In His peace-

Papias
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*Maybe learn about what you are going to talk about before talking next time.
Sky Writing replied: I'm comfortable with my current process. But thanks!
*There was never any real Biblical basis for Heliocentrism. - mark
*yes I believe the sun goes around the earth-gradyll
*I don't agree with Newton's gravity held moon either. ...the moon remains in the firmament -Doveman
* germ theory. Shown to be erroneous. -Greg
* I deny I'm a Homo sapiens (& mammal)-AV1611VET

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  #6  
Old 26th April 2012, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post

IMHO, there's more than enough scientific evidence showing that at some point---whether that be Post-Ice Age or Pre---there were many floods of IMMENSE magnitude around the world in many areas....and that is the context of "Global Flood", which many scientists have been more than open to when seeing just how much damage could have occurred due to that. If wishing to discuss the issue of water covering the entire areas where civilization occurred, films have been made on the issue....be it with "2012" and the Mega-Tsumamis occurring due to what played out with Earth Crust Displacement Theory or the film "The Day After Tommorrow" where Global Warming led to immesne problems with weather conditions and the sea level rose immensely to flood many areas. One could even consider the film "Water World" with Kevin Costner...where the setting of the film is the distant future and the background is one very much connected with the concept of Global Warming since the polar ice caps have completely melted, and the sea level has risen many thousands of feet, covering virtually all the land...


It also seems, IMHO, that global flooding can be seen in the clear flood legends from other parts of the world....as many of them apart from the Biblical text describe flooding happening rapidly rather than gradually..and as it concerns what I've said in seeing Flooding in a Global aspect within the form of multiple localized floods--either all together or back -to -back (ripple effect) and prolonging devestation in certain areas while making it possible to reach other places as they catch the tail end of things. ...with each localized flood doing extensive damage to the world's of others while those others may've never realized that what they experienced perhaps had its connections in something else that may've happened locally.
Please pardon the way I spliced this out of your post, I found this rather interesting. I should tell you up front I'm a young earth creationist and I take the account of the Great Deluge aka 'Flood' quite literally. That said, the idea of a local flood is not inconsistent with Scripture. Many evangelicals and Christian scholars of many different persuasions have entertained and maintained such a view. I personally have no problem with it since no essential doctrine is effected in any significant way.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Grace and peace,
Mark
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Old 27th April 2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mark kennedy View Post
Please pardon the way I spliced this out of your post, I found this rather interesting. I should tell you up front I'm a young earth creationist and I take the account of the Great Deluge aka 'Flood' quite literally.
No offense taken at the ways you spliced things out

As it concerns what you noted, I would be curious in seeing why you take the Flood account literally.

That said, the idea of a local flood is not inconsistent with Scripture. Many evangelicals and Christian scholars of many different persuasions have entertained and maintained such a view. I personally have no problem with it since no essential doctrine is effected in any significant way.

Got ya..


Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Grace and peace,
Mark
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Old 27th April 2012, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy G (G) View Post
Whether others agree or disagree, I'd love to hear what others feel on the matter...and whether or not you think reconcilliation can ever occur. Shalom
Adam and Eve show up in the Garden of Eden after 4004 BC. We know that Eden is what they call the Euphrates river Valley, an area that is still very furtile farm land. Archbishop Usshers famous chronology fixes the year of Noahs flood around 2348 BC (4354 years ago). Noah's father could have known Adam as they were both alive at one point in time. Noah's flood took place after his father died. You can not change the dates on any of this. That is why I believe Noah's flood is what they call a local flood. There is a biodiversity hot spot in the middle east and that is what would have been saved by Noah. If it were not for Noah, all of that would have been been destoryed.

Clearly Eden is not the only biodiversity hot spot. For example there is a hot spot in the Yellow River area of China that is very much like the hot spot we find in the middle east. The main point I wanted to make though was that you can not change the dates. There was no sin before Eve ate the forbidden fruit after 4004BC.

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Old 27th April 2012, 07:36 PM
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Jazer, I see you are a Methodist. Do you agree with this official resolution by your church?

160 F) Science and Technology We recognize science as a legitimate interpretation of Gods natural world. We affirm the validity of the claims of science in describing the natural world and in determining what is scientific. We preclude science from making authoritative claims about theological issues and theology from making authoritative claims about scientific issues. We find that sciences descriptions of cosmological, geological, and biological evolution are not in conflict with theology. We recognize medical, technical, and scientific technologies as legitimate uses of Gods natural world when such use enhances human life and enables all of Gods children to develop their God-given creative potential without violating our ethical convictions about the relationship of humanity to the natural world. We reexamine our ethical convictions as our understanding of the natural world increases. We find that as science expands human understanding of the natural world, our understanding of the mysteries of Gods creation and word are enhanced.

....
From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church - 2008. Copyright 2008 by The United Methodist Publishing House. Used by permission.

Science and Technology - UMC.org

Papias

P. S. G, I didn't see a response from you regarding the idea that practically all geologists reject flood geology, as they have for over 150 years. Did you perhaps write one and it didn't post correctly?
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Thanks for the good comments!
*Maybe learn about what you are going to talk about before talking next time.
Sky Writing replied: I'm comfortable with my current process. But thanks!
*There was never any real Biblical basis for Heliocentrism. - mark
*yes I believe the sun goes around the earth-gradyll
*I don't agree with Newton's gravity held moon either. ...the moon remains in the firmament -Doveman
* germ theory. Shown to be erroneous. -Greg
* I deny I'm a Homo sapiens (& mammal)-AV1611VET
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Old 27th April 2012, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Papias View Post
We find that sciences descriptions of cosmological, geological, and biological evolution are not in conflict with theology.
In conflict with who's theology? I do not have any problem with science. I see no direct conflict between science and the Bible. In fact science and the natural record helps us to better understand our Bible as far as I am concerned.
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