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  #441  
Old 26th April 2012, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by elman View Post
The True...............
..........
, but you don't respond to some of the things I said, so I repeat them hoping you will.
Repeating them does not address the questions posed to you or the OP of this thread.
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  #442  
Old 26th April 2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by elman View Post
The first death is not our physical death. The first death is our spiritual death when we kill our own soul with our own sin and if we do not turn to righteousness from wickedness, it is forever dead spiritually. Death always means the opposite of life or existence. Second death would be our spiritual death becoming permanent if we die Physically without turning to God and being recreated spiritually.

This response does not make sense. How is non existence not the opposite of existence? What are you saying about me not saying it about heaven etc.?
It is at judgment that we need grace and forgivness the most.
I agree God will not kill us. He will however allow us to kill our own soul with our own sin. Ezekiel 18 And we all, both the just and the unjust die physically.

So after we kill our own soul with our own sin, you are saying we are not human?
I don't think you really believe the physical body is what is tortured forever--the body returns to dust and the spirit, if it is alive, goes to God.
Just because you continue to repeat the same thing over and over does not make it so...[/quote]
True, but you don't respond to some of the things I said, so I repeat them hoping you will.[/quote]

Those were not my words,I do not use the term annihilation.. the only words that were mine were ,"just because you continue to repeat the same thing
over and over does not make it so". I don't know why I should believe Ezekial
18, when you seem to "pick and choose" what you think is true... to me, you
either take what the Bible says literally or choose not to, if you only believe
what you want to believe, and it appears you do, how can one believe anything in the Bible then? That does not make sense. Atheists do not believe in Hell either, they believe you can do as you choose in this life and "rest in peace", how ridiculous is that?!
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  #443  
Old 26th April 2012, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mimi57 View Post
Just because you continue to repeat the same thing over and over does not make it so...
True, but you don't respond to some of the things I said, so I repeat them hoping you will.[/quote]

Those were not my words,I do not use the term annihilation.. the only words that were mine were ,"just because you continue to repeat the same thing
over and over does not make it so". I don't know why I should believe Ezekial
18, when you seem to "pick and choose" what you think is true... to me, you
either take what the Bible says literally or choose not to, if you only believe
what you want to believe, and it appears you do, how can one believe anything in the Bible then? That does not make sense. Atheists do not believe in Hell either, they believe you can do as you choose in this life and "rest in peace", how ridiculous is that?![/quote]
You chose to not believe what Ezekiel says. Who is doing the picking and chosing? How ridiculous would you be if you were telling a criminal that was being killed as capital punishment--what a wonderful experience you are having and will soon be resting in peace. How lucky for you.

Last edited by elman; 26th April 2012 at 06:09 PM.
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  #444  
Old 26th April 2012, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mimi57 View Post
You cannot nor should not put yourself in Gods shoes. You are NOT God...
nothing could or does make God evil, Nothing, to believe that God could ever be evil is a sign that you do not believe Him OR take the Bible as the true word of God. Either you do or do not...it's not a game of pick and choose. I believe all
of God's word,not just the ones that make me feel comfortable. God is above
my earthly ,finite existence and no one can put themselves at His level,it is
arrogant to presume because *you* feel this or that, God does too. God is the
Almighty and not a mere mortal as are we!
God could chose to do evil. That is part of being all powerful. Believing that God has the power and the free will to be unloving or evil does not mean I do not believe in God. What makes God lovable is God can be trusted to not be evil. You do not take all the bible equally as the word of God. No one does. Everyone picks what they want to emphasize in the bible and what they want to ignore. You chose Ezekiel 18 to ignore, but you deny doing that.
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  #445  
Old 26th April 2012, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DrBubbaLove View Post
The Bible says God's wrote His Laws for man on our hearts. It does not say the created have a right to judge the actions of the Creator or that those laws apply to Him.

I believe our Creator is not bound or limited by His Creation or the rules/laws He chooses to have in Creation. I believe it is not for us to say what He is allowed or not allowed to do or to sit in Judgment of Him for what He does, except to say in faith that it is Good things are this way. And we know this because if there was a better way to have made this world, then He would have done that and it would be that way.

The only one here talking about God being is evil is yourself in an attempt to attack the orthodox view of Hell rather address why you think that view would make God evil (the topic here). That is what I am trying to comprehend and unsuccessfully getting you to support that claim.

Needless suffering is a part of this life and yet we know God is still truly Good. I fail to see how one can say eternal suffering in the afterlife would make Him evil when the suffering right now does not. The atheist delight in saying the fact He does nothing when we say He has the power to stop it makes Him an evil god. So how can one use the same argument to claim eternal suffering would do so?

That God is evil if individuals are eternally punishsed in Hell is your (as yet unsupported) claim and not mine. So far all you can do is plead that it is wrong for us, so it must be evil (and boohoo not fair) for God to allow it in Hell.

If we believe that EVERYTHING that happens is for His Glory, then it must be true that both the suffering in this life and in the next in Hell would be the same. As such, those things can ONLY be Good, we just cannot see it now.
You do not know for sure the suffering now is needless. You can only assume that. I agree we cannot see or understand the need for some of the suffering that goes on in this world. I do not agree that God directly causing people to suffer forever would be a loving or good thing.
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  #446  
Old 26th April 2012, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DrBubbaLove View Post
Am unfamiliar with any Christian view which places God anywhere near an equal plane with man such that we are able to judge His actions. I could see Mormons holding such views as we are just gods in process to them, so naturally under that view one could judge God's actions. Am pretty certain most Christians, orthodox or not, do not hold such views.

BTW if you are going to claim eternal suffering in Hell is God torturing people, then to be consistent you would logically have to view Him torturing the innocent that are suffering in this life, which under a Mormon-esque view of God would also make Him evil. Which goes back to the topic at hand and has you arguing that God is not truly Good.
The sheep were not orthodox--the goats were. Jesus was unorthodox. The Pharisees were orthodox. I don't mind being grouped with the unorthodox.
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  #447  
Old 26th April 2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by elman View Post
You do not know for sure the suffering now is needless. You can only assume that. I agree we cannot see or understand the need for some of the suffering that goes on in this world. I do not agree that God directly causing people to suffer forever would be a loving or good thing.
Now you contradict yourself. If a person's fate is Hell then they bear the responsibility for ending up there, not God. That much you agreed on earlier. God cannot be said to directly cause that suffering in Hell anymore than the suffering of the innocent in this life. It can be said He allows it and that He COULD end it, both here and in Hell.

While I agree we cannot understand the need for some suffering in this life, it does not follow that simply because suffering exists that God is not Loving or Truly Good for NOT ENDING IT. So if He does not end "torture" (your word for suffering) of the innocent in this life and He is still loving and Good, how can we say NOT ENDING suffering of those who deserve it in Hell would make Him NOT Loving and NOT Truly Good.

The atheist asks the same question you do regarding "torture" in this life. How can God torturing the innocent in this life and be called Good and Loving?
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  #448  
Old 26th April 2012, 06:40 PM
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Christ

Originally Posted by DrBubbaLove View Post
Repeating them does not address the questions posed to you or the OP of this thread.
Originally Posted by elman View Post
God could chose to do evil. That is part of being all powerful. Believing that God has the power and the free will to be unloving or evil does not mean I do not believe in God. What makes God lovable is God can be trusted to not be evil. You do not take all the bible equally as the word of God. No one does. Everyone picks what they want to emphasize in the bible and what they want to ignore. You chose Ezekiel 18 to ignore, but you deny doing that.
You continue to quote Ezekial 18, the way I understand it is we will each be responsible for our own sins... that doesn't take away from the fact we were born into "original sin". Yes, we (each of us) will be held accountable for our sins, as it should be, no one can blame someone else for their sins. It does
not change the fact that we were born sinners and only through the GRACE
of God will we be saved.


(Genesis-1:31)~ Many scriptures affirm that God is not the author of evil ;
"God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone".


Evil originates *not from God* but from the "fallen creatures". Sin is simply a lack of moral perfection in a fallen creature. Fallen creatures (humans),
themselves bear full responsibility for their sin. And ALL evil in the universe
emanates from fallen creatures.~ John Calvin
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  #449  
Old 26th April 2012, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by elman View Post
The sheep were not orthodox--the goats were. Jesus was unorthodox. The Pharisees were orthodox. I don't mind being grouped with the unorthodox.
If you had a leg to stand on you would not need to attack orthodox Christians. BTW neither Jesus or any Apostle ever taught that God is to be accountable to man, so am not sure what you think you have in common with them in regards to this very unorthodox position.

Either support your position that man should be able to Judge God and His actions or abandon it.
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  #450  
Old 26th April 2012, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by elman View Post
God could chose to do evil. That is part of being all powerful. Believing that God has the power and the free will to be unloving or evil does not mean I do not believe in God. What makes God lovable is God can be trusted to not be evil. You do not take all the bible equally as the word of God. No one does. Everyone picks what they want to emphasize in the bible and what they want to ignore. You chose Ezekiel 18 to ignore, but you deny doing that.
NO, God could not choose to be evil, evil comes from Satan and not God. No,
I do not pick and choose what I'm comfortable with and exclude what I am not
comfortable with. You are not comfortable thinking anyone will go to Hell,you are
wrong, and the Bible is very clear as it speaks of Hell 31 times and 54 times in the KJV. Other words such as Hades and Gehenna are used as well. Wonder
where the atheists go? They don't believe in Hell...so, I guess it doesn't exist. Hogwash!
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