Eternal Fire SAVES not TORTURES

JPD · #11 12th April 2012, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by he-man

Yes, Indeed, the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is

βασσνισθησοντσι to rub to test the purity is applied to the meaning of judged by fire.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Rev 3:18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, andthe shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Psa 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.

Psa 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.
Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 ... This is the second death.

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

That's an impressive list of scriptures there. Now, is it the works that get destroyed or the man himself? It can't be both - otherwise the scriptures would contradict. One is either destroyed by fire, or saved by fire as Paul contends. I would suggest that if we take ALL the scriptures (the whole counsel of God) - it is the later that concludes the purpose of God's vengeance and Judgement especially considering that it is "the living God, Who is the Saviour of all men, especially (his church) those that believe" - (I Tim. 4:10)

he-man · #12 12th April 2012, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by JPD

That's an impressive list of scriptures there. Now, is it the works that get destroyed or the man himself? It can't be both -

The question is " How many times do you wish to die if you are not a believer?"

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 ... This is the second death.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1Ti 4:10
For this we are slandered and a contender, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour forever of men, yea, of those that believe.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that all who believe on him might not perish, but have life eternal.

18 He that believes on him is not adjudicated: he that believes not is adjudicated already, because he has not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

JPD · #13 12th April 2012, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by he-man

The question is " How many times do you wish to die if you are not a believer?"

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14 ... This is the second death.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1Ti 4:10
For this we are slandered and a contender, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour forever of men, yea, of those that believe.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that all who believe on him might not perish, but have life eternal.

18 He that believes on him is not adjudicated: he that believes not is adjudicated already, because he has not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There are plenty of scriptures that talk about "Dying" even in this life time - How does one "die to the flesh" or "crucify oneself" without actually dying? Well, it's surely symbolic not literal. When you last sinned with your eyes - did you literally pluck them out with a spoon? Of course not. I would suggest that these scriptures talk of something symbolic also.

Having said all that. Is Paul right or wrong in saying that ALL at judgement will be saved? Is it the WORKS that are burnt or the man? These seem to be questions that no-one (eternal hell believers) can answer. Can you?

By the way, the proper rendering of 1 Tim 4:10 states ALL! (Gk 3956 Pas) "Pas" always means ALL in the Greek.

he-man · #14 13th April 2012, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by JPD

There are plenty of scriptures that talk about "Dying" even in this life time - How does one "die to the flesh" or "crucify oneself" without actually dying? Is it the WORKS that are burnt or the man? These seem to be questions that no-one (eternal hell believers) can answer. Can you?

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. (2) For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Mat 7:13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wideisthe gate, and broadisthe way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because straitisthe gate, and narrowisthe way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat 24:13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Originally Posted by JPD

By the way, the proper rendering of 1 Tim 4:10 states ALL! (Gk 3956 Pas) "Pas" always means ALL in the Greek.

Then you do not know Greek the word used in 1Tim 4:10 is παντων and παν is also used in the manuscripts as short for Spirit.

G3956 παν πας all; πάντα everything, ever, forever; πάντες πάσα πασος everyone, everybody (not ‘all’) as manγ as

apostolic34 · #15 13th April 2012, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by JPD

Having said all that. Is Paul right or wrong in saying that ALL at judgement will be saved? Is it the WORKS that are burnt or the man? These seem to be questions that no-one (eternal hell believers) can answer. Can you?

*sigh...*
The words of Paul relate to those who are building on the foundation that was laid by Christ, continued by Paul, and continued further by those who come after (i.e. the ministers of the Church) which still continues today. It DOES NOT relate to all believers. So when he talks about their works being tried by fire he is talking about the works of the MINISTERS OF THE CHURCH! That's the context of the passage. HOW do you read ALL BELIEVERS into that????

Anyway, here's what Paul said to believers in the church who are in unrepentant sin:
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, murder, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God". (Gal. 5: 19-21, ESV).

Again, study more than Rob Bell theology and you might just become as enlightened as you want me to be. Cheers!

gasman64 · #16 13th April 2012, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by apostolic34

*sigh...*
The words of Paul relate to those who are building on the foundation that was laid by Christ, continued by Paul, and continued further by those who come after (i.e. the ministers of the Church) which still continues today. It DOES NOT relate to all believers. So when he talks about their works being tried by fire he is talking about the works of the MINISTERS OF THE CHURCH! That's the context of the passage. HOW do you read ALL BELIEVERS into that????

Anyway, here's what Paul said to believers in the church who are in unrepentant sin:
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, murder, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God". (Gal. 5: 19-21, ESV).

Again, study more than Rob Bell theology and you might just become as enlightened as you want me to be. Cheers!

I have never seen any indication that he is a Rob Bell follower and I think it behooves you to be a little more respectful and less prone to baseless accusations. The scriptures state 'all' many times. I think you will find there are plenty of people who believe that besides Mr.Bell. I for one have never read his book.

apostolic34 · #17 14th April 2012, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by gasman64

I have never seen any indication that he is a Rob Bell follower and I think it behooves you to be a little more respectful and less prone to baseless accusations. The scriptures state 'all' many times. I think you will find there are plenty of people who believe that besides Mr.Bell. I for one have never read his book.

Fine, let me expand my argument (i.e. reasoning) then. All universalists (including Mr. Bell and the OP) are wrong. 'All' will not be saved. You JUST won't find it in the bible. But thanks for correcting me. I'll try to watch my wording next time to make it more palatable.

gasman64 · #18 14th April 2012, 12:46 AM

I believe all will be saved. I see it as very obvious in the bible. But I don't consider myself to be a universalist. I have seen the arguing between both sides and don't want to be labelled with either side because that belittles much of other things that I believe. And what I believe is just too big to be confined to a silly label and my belief is far greater than just one issue. Perhaps you may feel the same.

JPD · #19 14th April 2012, 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by apostolic34

*sigh...*
The words of Paul relate to those who are building on the foundation that was laid by Christ, continued by Paul, and continued further by those who come after (i.e. the ministers of the Church) which still continues today. It DOES NOT relate to all believers. So when he talks about their works being tried by fire he is talking about the works of the MINISTERS OF THE CHURCH! That's the context of the passage. HOW do you read ALL BELIEVERS into that????

Anyway, here's what Paul said to believers in the church who are in unrepentant sin:
"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, murder, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God". (Gal. 5: 19-21, ESV).

Again, study more than Rob Bell theology and you might just become as enlightened as you want me to be. Cheers!

Sigh you might, I’m glad you’re still on this thread lol! Any attempt of mine to address this stuff has come to an abrupt end due to people being far too trigger happy on the report button....so I’m glad we can have a discussion before the axe falls again! Now bare with me, I’ll keep this as short as I can as I fear you may have lost patience with all this. I’ll try not to bore you in the process.

Now, Rob Bell – there’s a man stuck between a rock and a hard place huh. Poor Rob Bell, If you’re gonna say something – you can’t do it by halves....it’s a shame really – he started on the right track alas he didn’t go anywhere near far enough in explaining his wishy washy theology. However, he’d be the recipient of far more venomous attacks than I’ll ever be on this forum....but I digress.

Now. I’m really glad you highlighted the fact that Paul was associating fire with the judgement of the church and its works in 1 Corinthians 3:13 because this verse is crucial to my arguments about Gods dealings with mankind.

Is this verse addressing the church? Absolutely! Yes, this verse is directed at the church and yet – make no mistake about it “the day” (Hemera GK 5610) mentioned here can only relate to “one day” in scripture and that day is the day of judgement. That Paul is addressing believers here, there is little doubt – yet the context is in reference to the same judgement, the same PROCESS that befalls all men.

Why is this verse so important? Because this is the ONLY verse in all the N.T. that describes the NATURE of Gods “fire” in judgement. And it is also the only “spiritual” witness to the verses of Revelation that talk about “the day.” It is with this very verse, that I feel that the Church has completely lost sight of a truth rarely taught.

For all the carnal nonsense preached by the Church about “the day,” - judgement, torture and suffering - this is assuredly the same day and the same PROCESS that Paul talks about in 1 Cor 3:13.

"and the dead judged… ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS," (Rev. 20:11). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8.

2. "…they were judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." (Rev. 20:13). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8.

Make no mistake, be it believer or sinner – it is the WORKS that are judged and BURNT and it is the MAN that the FIRE saves;"but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1Co 3:13-15)

But this is where I can’t help but shake my head at the Churches’ teaching about all this. Let’s look at 1 Cor 3:13-15 a little more closely.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (Judgement Day) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built there upon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now, you mentioned Gal 5: 19-21 in relation to those people and the people (that display those carnal/evil WORKS) that surely “will not inherit the kingdom of God".

The Church teaches that if someone doesn’t “inherit the kingdom” he is “unsaved” and “damned” for eternity. Now here is the irony in all this. If you contend that 1 Cor 3:13 is about believers ONLY, we have a huge problem. One can’t “suffer loss” – (and there can only be ONE LOSS here and that “loss” is “inheriting the Kingdom”) and STILL be saved?!?!

The Church teaches that if you don’t inherit the kingdom – you’re a gonner! Yet here we have a verse (the only verse that witnesses to Rev and “works”) that states IF YOU DONT INHERIT THE KINGDOM.....YOU STILL GET SAVED.....AND SAVED BY FIRE OF ALL THINGS!

How can a Believer “suffer loss” and be saved then? Well, he shall be saved alright - by FIRE, along with all the other sinners who lost out on the Kingdom? They’ll be weeping and gnashing of teeth alright – by the BELIEVERS Who’s works fell short! It’s not the sinning masses who “miss out.” Which brings me to my next point.

I firmly believe and contend that when the scriptures talk about the “Loss of the Kingdom” – it is talking about the loss of the chance to “rule and reign with Christ.” It is NOT about the masses getting boiled alive in lava forever and ever!

This is why I believe that “the lake of fire saves and not tortures.” A further irony in the churches view of judgement is that they happily contend that they’ll “rule and reign with Christ” but by their logic, THERE’S NO-ONE LEFT TO RULE AND REIGN OVER.

"And the leaves of the tree (the Word of God) are for the HEALING OF THE NATIONS" (Rev. 22:2). Blessed day! Blessed deliverance! Long milleniums ago the prophet Jeremiah saw this day in spirit and rejoiced: "At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and ALL NATIONS SHALL BE GATHERED UNTO IT, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart" (Jer. 3:17).

And there’s the proof. I could give you dozens of verses that show the end result of God’s purging by fire – but this one will do. After judgement – EVERYONE who “walked after the imagination of their evil hearts” will be cured, turned and converted – BY THE LAKE OF FIRE.

And how?

for when THY JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:8-9).

The inhabitants of the world can’t learn righteousness in hell now can they? How do they learn righteousness? Well, those who “rule and reign with Christ” (those who didn’t suffer loss) will teach them!

It is only by the sinning masses of humanity being thrown into the lake of fire that “....THE WHOLE EARTH SHALL BE FULL OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11:2-9).

Jesus’ Gehenna fire was a heads up to the disciples.

Pauls message (1 Cor 3:13) was a heads up to the believers in Corinth.

Revelations (written for the 7 CHURCHES ie the whole church) is a heads up for us.

The Bibles teaching on judgement is about being called and chosen to rule and reign with Christ over the rest of sinning humanity, to teach them righteousness. It’s NOT about 1% being saved and 99% of humanity getting tortured forever in hell.

It’s the only way all the scriptures make sense and If I may be so bold, I can prove this on every point.

he-man · #20 14th April 2012, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by JPD

For all the carnal nonsense preached by the Church about “the day,” - judgement, torture and suffering - this is assuredly the same day and the same PROCESS that Paul talks about in 1 Cor 3:13."and the dead judged… ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS," (Rev. 20:11). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8. 2. "…they were judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." (Rev. 20:13). And they are judged in "FIRE," Vers. 14, 15 & 21:8.
Make no mistake, be it believer or sinner – it is the WORKS that are judged and BURNT and it is the MAN that the FIRE saves;"but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1Co 3:13-15)

You must mean the chaff that he will burn up with unquenchable fire.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are dead, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which died through Jesus will God bring with him

What then does consuming mean?
"I would not have you to be ignorant brethren," for our God is a consuming fire and He is eternal which means His fire is unquenchable or as άσβεστος asbestos inextinguishable.

The eternal chastisement is to never see the face of God again, that is, the unquenchable fire, which is annhiliation, for all eternity, as "total destruction" or "complete obliteration"; having its root in the Latin nihil (nothing). A literal translation is "to make into nothing".

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:8,9

Lu 3:17 His winnowing-spade in his hand, he will will gather the seed1 into his repository through purging and cleaning his floor, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
1* Greek σείτος σιτάρι seed; cereal; wheat