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  #141  
Old 21st April 2012, 05:05 PM
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Abomination = Damnation?

Revelation 21: 26-27
I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
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  #142  
Old 21st April 2012, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by martyglo View Post
You're argument is with God not his people.
Exactly. God has already clearly said in the bible that homosexuality is an abomination, unnatural, sinful, and that those who practice it will be punished if they do not repent.

You say that you will not believe that it is a sin, that there are no consequences, that it is natural, and you are asking us to prove to you that what God has already said is true.

Your beef is with God and his word. You do not get to determine what is and what is not sin. You don't get to determine what is natural. You don't get to determine what criteria God should be using to let people into heaven or send them to hell. God is the creator, and the ultimate authority, and he has the final say over all such matters.

God says it, and it's true. If you can't accept that basic point of theology, you are not following biblical Christianity, and any other churches out there that refuse to submit to this basic principle are not practicing Christianity.

The comments you have made show that you do not regard the bible as truth, and that you refuse to accept the evidence plainly displayed before you that sexual immorality has consequences.
  #143  
Old 21st April 2012, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Psych View Post
I didn't say there are no consequences for sinning. I said I don't see how something with no negative consequences could be considered sin.
Ok sorry.

It's sin because YHWH says so in his word. It has negative consequences. The wages of sin is death. Spiritual death isn't good. Sin brings curses, and diseases etc.

Actually, it is natural. I fail to see why it's obviously wrong, and why it's an abomination. Maybe you could elaborate.
It's unnatural because YHWH says so in Romans 1:27. It's obviously unnatural because YHWH created man and woman, not man and man or woman and woman. It's obviously unnatural because marriage is to be between man and woman (see the verses in my previous post).

It's an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13).

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Just because he said he was led by the Holy Spirit doesn't mean he was. The medieval crusaders were supposedly "led by the Holy Spirit". Your brothers actions are disgustingly hateful, your superstition is mind controlling, and your logic is absent.
Yes he was. Because one guy who were involved in that case, suggested that they should do the same thing to The Order of the Templar Knights, which is a Freemasonry place. The other people didn't agree (obviously it wasn't spirit led). Yet that one guy went to do it, and he got REALLY sick afterwards.

It's not hateful, it's love. It was a good deed, for Yeshua, because homosexuality is SIN.

You have absolutely no basis whatsoever to make that claim. You can say that everyone who tried to "be delivered" and failed did not really want it, but you have nothing to support this idea, and would be astoundingly wrong. Be assured, no one wants to be gay.
They have demons, they need deliverance, and they can have it. Read how "VICTOR ROMERO, LEFT HOMOSEXUALITY AFTER 19 YEARS!!!": https://www.facebook.com/notes/victo...42543939129007


If someone could simply show me why God hates homosexuality, then I would change my views. Saying it's not natural is both wrong and irrelevant. Saying it's a "perversion" is all fine and dandy, but then you have to explain what makes it perverse.
It's unnatural, it's perverse (Romans 1:27, Jude 1:7, Leviticus 20:13, Genesis 5:2).
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  #144  
Old 21st April 2012, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Psych View Post
I didn't say there are no consequences for sinning. I said I don't see how something with no negative consequences could be considered sin.



Actually, it is natural. I fail to see why it's obviously wrong, and why it's an abomination. Maybe you could elaborate.



Just because he said he was led by the Holy Spirit doesn't mean he was. The medieval crusaders were supposedly "led by the Holy Spirit". Your brothers actions are disgustingly hateful, your superstition is mind controlling, and your logic is absent.



Wrong. There are plenty of examples of people honestly trying therapy and failing.

You have absolutely no basis whatsoever to make that claim. You can say that everyone who tried to "be delivered" and failed did not really want it, but you have nothing to support this idea, and would be astoundingly wrong. Be assured, no one wants to be gay.



Where?



well that's just a little bit misogynistic, don't you think? What is your opinion on possibly having a female president?


If someone could simply show me why God hates homosexuality, then I would change my views. Saying it's not natural is both wrong and irrelevant. Saying it's a "perversion" is all fine and dandy, but then you have to explain what makes it perverse.

not everyone who attempts to climb Mt. Everest makes it, you think everyone who would try to get free from one of satans strongest delusions will succeed, much like Mt. Everest its only those who refuse to give up, make it. There are way more people who attempted to climb it and gave up than those who succeeded.............Jesus said narrow is the gate and FEW FIND IT!
  #145  
Old 21st April 2012, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Psych View Post
I didn't say there are no consequences for sinning. I said I don't see how something with no negative consequences could be considered sin.



Actually, it is natural. I fail to see why it's obviously wrong, and why it's an abomination. Maybe you could elaborate.



Just because he said he was led by the Holy Spirit doesn't mean he was. The medieval crusaders were supposedly "led by the Holy Spirit". Your brothers actions are disgustingly hateful, your superstition is mind controlling, and your logic is absent.



Wrong. There are plenty of examples of people honestly trying therapy and failing.

You have absolutely no basis whatsoever to make that claim. You can say that everyone who tried to "be delivered" and failed did not really want it, but you have nothing to support this idea, and would be astoundingly wrong. Be assured, no one wants to be gay.



Where?



well that's just a little bit misogynistic, don't you think? What is your opinion on possibly having a female president?


If someone could simply show me why God hates homosexuality, then I would change my views. Saying it's not natural is both wrong and irrelevant. Saying it's a "perversion" is all fine and dandy, but then you have to explain what makes it perverse.


what makes it perverse is some of the practices, using your rectum as a vagina is one
  #146  
Old 21st April 2012, 06:18 PM
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Yes hate the sin love the sinner, however as many people have shown the bible is against homosexuality. Plain and simple it is sin. There is nothing wrong with teaching someone they are living in sin. Also, if they call them self christian then it is our duty to hold them accountable to their actions.

Sure some Christians don't deal with the issue correctly. I am sorry if this is the experience you or your friend has encountered. The simple facts are God made everything so he makes the rules. He teaches us homosexuality is wrong it really is that simple it is a choice some people chose wrong.

I know the idea may be offensive but Christianity in today's world is offensive.

Originally Posted by Cotjones View Post
Again we are forgetting that for many of these people its not a matter of, "I was straight my entire life and then temptation came along."

Think about babies born with crack cocaine addictions because of their mothers. Would you go preach to them? They would look at you laughing while they sucked on their fingers. It's another matter where wisdom is crucial. I have a homosexual friend who has medically dangerous low levels of testosterone just naturally. Is anyone surprised that he turned out homosexual? To speak to him he will tell you that he doesn't feel like a gay man, he feels like a straight woman, but his reflection in the mirror doesn't make sense to him. Can any of you honestly say you understand the reasoning behind his life and actions?

Medically, he is only a man because of his genitals. His hormonal levels and arguably thoughts and emotions are more feminine than most women.

I am yet again distressed by the level of dogmatism and lack of wisdom I witness from the majority of the christian community.

It as if those in the churches today are all playing make believe with this construct of reality that doesn't exist anymore. However, the one sure way to make something exist is in your imagination. You people think that all Homosexuals have had a life just like yours and randomly one day just decided to live in sin. How would you feel toward God if you were a young adult that honestly wasn't sure whether you were male or female encountering the spewing of hate and ignorance that is common place for the church.

The "good" Christian will always "SAY" hate the sin, love the sinner. But that is a message completely eclipsed by the actions and expressed opinions of the Church.
  #147  
Old 21st April 2012, 08:23 PM
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Hebrews 12:14-17:

"14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done."

This verse does not say that Esau's sin was fornication or even interracial marriage.

I think a visit to the dictionary is in order:

http://topicalbible.org/f/fornication.htm:

Fornication is:

"Unlawful sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried person; the act of such illicit sexual intercourse between a man and a woman as does not by law amount to adultery."

AND

"This word is used in Scripture not only for the sin of impurity between unmarried persons, but for idolatry, and for all kinds of infidelity to God. In Ezekiel 16:1-63, the Jewish church is symbolized as a female infant, growing up to womanhood, and then wedded to Jehovah by covenant. When she breaks her covenant by going after idols, she is justly reproached as an adulteress and a harlot, Jeremiah 2:20 3:8-9 Hosea 3:1. Adultery and fornication are frequently confounded. Both the Old and New Testaments condemn all impurity and fornication, corporeal and spiritual-idolatry, apostasy, heresy, and infidelity."


Interracial marriage is not immoral. Fornication is not the same as interracial marriage. You are way off base. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. God does not care about race, and never says that a person who marries someone of another race will go to hell.

1 Samuel 16:7 - ".....The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
  #148  
Old 21st April 2012, 09:00 PM
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@ exiledchristain. I disagree.



(All Races Have One Ancestor in the Image of God, and All Humans Are in God’s Image

Genesis 1:27, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” Again in Genesis 5:1-3,

Acts 17:26, “And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth.”

( The Bible Forbids Intermarriage Between Unbeliever and Believer, But Not Between Races

Deuteronomy 7:
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites,Girgashites, Amorites,Canaanites, Perizzites,Hivites and Jebusites,seven nations larger and stronger than you—2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them,then you must destroy them totally. [a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons,

( In Christ Our Oneness Is Profound and Transforms Racial and Social Differences from Barriers to Blessings)

Colossians 3:9-11, “You have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,free; but Christ is all, and in all.”

The final image of heaven is “every tribe and language and people and nation” (Revelation 7:9; 5:9)

( Criticizing One Interracial Marriage Was Severely Disciplined by God)

Moses, a Jew, apparently married a black African and was approved by God. Numbers 12:1, “ Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married a Cushite woman.” Cushite means a woman from Cush, a region south of Ethiopia, and known for their black skin.
In God’s anger at Miriam, Moses’s sister, God says in effect, “You like being light-skinned Miriam? I’ll make you light-skinned.” Numbers 12:10: “When the cloud removed from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous,like snow.”
  #149  
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lol, I'm not saying its not sin. I'm saying you condemn it only because it's a sin easily seen. In that, you are hypocrites. You are all sinners, I'm a sinner.

We sin almost every day. Every one of us. You are a smoker? You sin many times a day knowing it's wrong, you are worse than a homosexual.

My point is tell me how many of you can sit and have a conversation with a homosexual without debasing him and condemning him in your mind?

In reality, you're just as much a sinner as him. Or at least you were at a time. Do you approach a heterosexual non-christian the same way as a homosexual? lol I'm inclined to think not.

The problem is the attitude given to homosexuals. It's hypocrisy, the Bible teaches against it directly in many ways.

When you bring a person to your church with you who isn't saved do you introduce him by listing all the sins you know he commits?

You are driving the homosexual community away with your actions and attitudes. Not leading them to God. I fear for you on judgment day if this is you.

Personally, after overcoming the brainwashing of my youth, I've learned pretty well to look as gays as humans, and not define them by their sins, and I have many Gay friends i'd consider good friends. Some of the stories they tell me are absolutely mortifying.

One friend told me that his family held him down and had a preacher attempt to expel his demons.
  #150  
Old 21st April 2012, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by medieval_lady83 View Post
@ Grace51, if you are suggesting that we need to speak the truth in love, no one is disagreeing with you on that point. But not everything loving sounds pleasant to the ear. Sometimes, no matter how nicely you tell someone they have food in their teeth, a booger in their nose, or toilet paper on their shoe they will be angry with you.

Even the most kind delivery must still include the fact that the person is in sin, and that sin has a price. The message of the gospel is offensive, because it says that people are wicked and on their way to hell. Jesus said that the world hates him because he testifies that what it does is evil. And if they hated him, they will hate his followers as well.

At the end of the day, some people respond to the gospel by being offended, and saying that Christians are so judgmental and continue in their sin, while others will respond by being cut to the heart, feeling remorse, and running to Jesus for salvation that they know they can't achieve on there own.

Again, the gospel IS offensive. People do not like to hear that they are wrong or doing something bad. Everybody believes they are basically a good person, and thinks that they get to determine who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. But they did not create heaven or hell, and they are not in charge of determining who goes where. Only God makes that call. The human race will either meet God's requirements (via accepting his son) or we will not.
phew.... seem we are finally on the same page in some of the issues. but i am reluctant because of your stand on gay = more likely pado. and your appear lack of interest of being cautious making that assumption, accept you might be wrong and do everything within your ability to understand the issue before you make that kind of conclusion.

like i have said once and i will say it again, labeling someone "more likely" pado is a very serious accusation that will have real impact on people lives.

however, while i do not know you. based on all the posts i have seen of you so far. you consistently ignores that fact ( possible impact on others reputation and how it affects them).

you say you treat gay people lovingly but if you really care about someone, you would not want to wrong them by such horrendous linkage.

i have came across many christians ( incl on this forums), for them loving gays is really about "tolerating with those perverts"

there are absolutely no love in their heart what so ever for the gay community.

and what they feel inside, comes out in their words.

deep down inside, they see gays as " dirty perverts" who refuse to repent.

they say they care about gay salvation.

but it is really they hate gays for refusing to agree with God words. and they take that very personally.

but of course, that sounds so unchristlike, hence they always go back to either they care about gay eternal salvation, or if they feel slightly more honest. that gays have no rights to go against God words.

i have said it so many times, i will say it again. God hate the sins but not the person.

God loves us while we are still sinners, that is the only reason He was willing to sacrifise His only son for us while we were still sinning.

His ultimate purpose is to save not to condemn.

to this date. you have yet to apologise or even willing to acknowlege your theory ( not proven) on gays = more likely pado may be wrong. and you have yet to show any desire to look into the matter more. despite the real consequences your notion might have on others.

i do not know you or the other lady. but you can tell a person by their fruits. it is quite clear to me both of you have no love what so ever for the gays.

and you are just trying to use everything you know from the scriputure to justify you desire to condemn them.

judging others is a sin in itself. and what constitute judging, well i believe it has to do ( partly) with ones motives. so is slandering ( spreading info about others that one is not 100% sure is the truth and will hurt others).

i know you say you never deliberately spread such info. if i believe you, does that mean you never shared such notion with others at all.

a person who is commiting sins has no right to correct others. and there are plenty of us who truly loves the gays ( or any unbelievers) and are correcting them out of true love because we really do want them to be saved. So dont worry, even if you two do not get involved, the message will get out to them. you two just need to learn to mind your own business, and keep your judgement and hate to yourself.

one need to take out planck from their own eyes before they point out the saw dusts in others eyes.

btw in the past i have been rejected when i tried to share gospel with my gay friends. did i take it personally, no. because i understand their eyes hasnt been opened by God and it is expected they wont accept Gospel so easily, also because my focus has always been on them. so when i get rejected, i do not go " how dare they". i was like, " ok, how can find a diff way to approach this". And yes, there are times i do refrain from telling them this at a particular moment ( doesnt mean i will not tell them ever), if i feel it will only driven them from Christ further. it is all about how can i get them to accept this message.

it is not like i think to myself " well , i am going to say this to you whether you like it or not, because it is God words and you just have to take it". if i do that, then it is clear that i do not have their salvaltion in mind, rather, i just want to condemn them.

for the last time. Jesus come to save and to help people repent.

Last edited by Grace51; 21st April 2012 at 09:26 PM.
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