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  #11  
Unread 14th April 2012, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ReformedPharisee View Post
Interesting, so he is willing to put blinders on and possibly be deceived because he is willing to refuse to look at all the evidence that points to the real Messiah, who could have come back to earth at any time in the past since the days of Isaiah.

Have you ever read "The Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowel? In the book, McDowell meticulously lists the Messianic Prophecies of the Old Testament scriptures, and matches them with their fulfillment in the New Testament scriptures. The odds of any one man fulfilling every single one of the Messianic prophecies is astronomical - and Jesus fulfilled them all.

If your friend is a TRUE Israelite and a seeker of the Messiah, then he is not being very worthy if he doesn't investigate the evidence. You can tell him that I said that, and I urge him to get the book and look at the evidence.

And I will be praying with you that God would open his eyes to the truth.
No i have never read the book.......he has looked at the evidence and has studied for himself...yet came to the conclution that jesus was not the messiah....one proof he hold to is that jesus did not fulfill all that the messiah was suppose to fulfill.....but i understand that jesus had to suffer to enter into glory.....his first mission is to redeem....his next mission is to claim what belongs to him.....thank you for your prayers
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  #12  
Unread 18th April 2012, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ReformedPharisee View Post
dfw69...very good question, and I'm glad to see you on this path.

The Old Covenant had a few purposes, the first of which was to fulfill God's covenant with Abraham. In making the Mosaic Covenant (also called the Old Covenant, or the Sinai Covenant) mediated through Moses, God was fulfilling His promise to Abraham of providing his descendants with promises, blessings, and to become His people, and He would become their God.

The next purpose for the Mosaic Covenant was to establish the Law - the obligations the Israelites had to keep in order to remain in Covenant relationship with God. This was God establishing His standards of righteousness and holiness, which had a future task as well as for then, the present.

The next purpose was to establish the Tabernacle - the Tent of Meeting, which is where the daily sacrifices were to be held, and for establishing the tenets of atonement for the sins of the people. This also held a future task, as we shall see in a moment. Without the Mosaic Covenant (the Law and the Atonement) there could be no Messiah or the establishing of the New Covenant in the Messiah's blood.

Once Christ came on the scene, He fulfilled all the law, taught about the Kingdom of God and Kingdom principles, then He made eternal atonement for the people in His own blood and established the New Covenant. Once a person enters into the Covenant, they enter into the Kingdom of God and the Mosaic Covenant has no more force. Only in the New Covenant is the promises of God, the gifts of God, the blessings of God. Only in the New Covenant is eternal life, something the Mosaic Covenant never gave.

I would show your jewish friend the prophecies where God says He will establish a new covenant with His people, and then show him where the New Testament scriptures demonstrate that Christ established the New Covenant, they are mostly in the book of Hebrews.

Jesus was God in the flesh, His flesh died on the cross, as Yahweh (as God) can never die.
Question: What does being born from above mean to you? Can you explain it as being something less than how Jesus was born?
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  #13  
Unread 21st April 2012, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ormly View Post
Question: What does being born from above mean to you? Can you explain it as being something less than how Jesus was born?
Lets get the answer from scripture...

John 1:12-13
12 But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the authority to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

and...

John 3:3-6
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and [born of] the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

"born again" in the Greek, Gennao anothen, literally "born from above" or "born anew from above". Remember that doctrine is revealed in progressive revelation, Jesus first said "born again" and in continuing the conversation He explains what that means.

"Born again" means that two things take place, one of them being initiated by the man, and the other being initiated by God. The man receives baptism, entering into Covenant Relationship with God, and immediately the first promise of the Covenant is received also - the indwelling of the Spirit of God. These two things together culminates in being "born anew from above" or being born of God.

As far as Jesus' birth, He was not ever "born again" and by His very nature, He did not have to be born again. Part of the reason for the new birth is the necessity of having the indwelling of the Spirit of God - but being God Himself, and having the fullness of the Spirit, the Christ is never said of in Scripture as being born again.

He went through the formality of baptism in order to "fulfill all [the necessities of] righteousness"...
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Unread 24th April 2012, 08:48 PM
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Hi reformed pharisee....what is the new covenant for the jews....i mean is the new covenant a new or renewed covenant?....what was the apostles testifying to israel co.serning the prophecy that god will make a new covenant?...is it new altogether or just a renewed covenant without the power of the law?
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  #15  
Unread 30th April 2012, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dfw69 View Post
Hi reformed pharisee....what is the new covenant for the jews....i mean is the new covenant a new or renewed covenant?....what was the apostles testifying to israel co.serning the prophecy that god will make a new covenant?...is it new altogether or just a renewed covenant without the power of the law?

dfw...the New Covenant is an entirely new and different covenant than the Old Covenant. Technically, in the Old Testament scriptures it is said to be made to the Jews, but God also provided for entrance into the Covenant for Gentiles, which is why we are said to be able to be grafted into the vine. The means of entrance into the Covenant today is not physical - meaning, according to race as it once was. Today, the entrance into the Covenant depends not upon race, but upon faith, and "whosoever will" exercise faith in Christ can enter therein.

It is an altogether new covenant, but it still has law, which is one thing that the Reformers messed up on in articulating Reformed theology after the break from R/C. There will always be some kind of law that the people of God are held responsible to...because that law is the ONLY thing that separates the believer from the unbeliever...

Hebrews 7:12
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Today, in the New Covenant, we are no longer bound to obedience of the Law of Moses, instead we are bound to the Law of Christ (also called the Royal Law, and the Law of the Spirit)...

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:2-4
2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

There is always a law that we must follow, what confuses this issue is that many (who don't understand what they are talking about, yet love to teach others) bundle a misconception of the word "works" with ANYTHING that we are said to have to obey. In their minds, anything that we have to obey in order to remain in relationship with God is "works." And in that misconception they are wrong.

You will find a lot of them on CF and they pit one passage of scripture up against another in war-like fashion, not understanding that God does not contradict Himself and that all scripture harmonizes with all other scripture when we have the CORRECT interpretation of that scripture.

Basically, there is a law to walk in obedience to, but it is not so that we can have eternal life. The Covenant Obligation is to walk in love towards others, and when we obediently fulfill this mandate, we remain in Covenant with God. The promise of eternal life is a Covenant promise, available only to those who are in the Covenant. We do not obey in order to have eternal life, we obey because we want to be in relationship with God, and because of that desire, God promises eternal life.

Some still argue that you are "working" for eternal life, but that is only because they are religious and like to argue.
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Unread 30th April 2012, 10:49 PM
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Thank you reformedpharesee....i always thought of the new as new....but when some say it is a renewed covenant...i began to intertain that thought and began to question....when i saw the teaching behind it and motives behind them....i knew it was false and came to the conclution that it is a new covenant after all ....i never really gaves these things much thought before...but when dealing with different theologies of this forum...ones faith is really tested...thanks for your reply....peace
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Unread 1st May 2012, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dfw69 View Post
Thank you for your reply reformedpharisee....very imformative....i admit my knowledge in the old covenant is very weak.....

my friend does not accept any christian writtings or doctrine as truth....i can quote hebrews all day and he will not accept because of unbelief

but he sees no need of the new covenant....the old provides everything he needs....nor does he see sin offerings as there are many ways to seek forgiveness...for he believes that if he repents and ask god for mercy.....he recieves for god does not lie....god said i will rememver thier sins no more....
In response to the OP:
By faith in the supernatural advent of Christ and his approval of life justified by that faith, one is set free from the law of sin/seperation in the Garden. The seed was promised to Eve [HER seed of gullibleness; [faith] and also the physical seed of the woman without the man] to reverse the effects that the two voices had.

Types of that covenenat [later called the everlasting covenant] were passed through Noah and Abraham, Isaac, jacob/Israel and was the 'a covenant' of Dan 9:26. Faith in this person and his approving love ushers in EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS to the one who believes. That righteousness is often sealed with a peace or love or other spiritual awakening to which the individual often returns in his heart. It is also the foundation for the hope of a spiritua-supernaturall afterlife.

The mosaic covennat was called "old" when the Everlasting covenant came in fulfillment in Christ. The mosaic was a corporal, national covenantal promise of blessing only within the land of judea. It was prophesied to only be temporal. It was called 'not the good way' in Isaiah 65:2 and was given negative characteristics right when Moses delivered it.

In some senses your friend may be a believer because he seems to actually believes in God's GOOD Character. John 1:12,13 But his life expereince and spiritual jouney on this land would be developed by coming to understand the New Words of the New Prophet who was promised by Moses and who's instructions would be contrast against Moses instructions. Compare Deut 5 and Deut 18 and then ask your friend who the 'new prophet' was who would speak the very words of God and after which prophets after him would die. And why was there a need for a 'new prophet'.?

When would they hear the voice of God again from the heavens? Answer, when it was spoken at Jesus baptism.

You could guide him into an understanding of how Abraham, Isaac, Israel were individuals of the everlasting covenant and their spiritual experiences [especially jacob-Israels] were foundational elements of the seed of Israel in Jeremiah 31 which is a spiritual seed of regeneration in Christ.

You could direct him to contrast the principles of the mosaic covenant begun when drawing out of Egypt and the opposing principles and teachings of Jesus in the New which was declared to be NOT LIKE the mosaic covnenat by Jeremiah himself. Jesus taught the beatitudes and commanded faith in him [Matt 5] in contrast with the law. [John 1:17]

You could ask him who 'shiloh' was referring to in Gen 49 and who would come in the 'latter days' of the importance of the sons of Israel. [The genetic records were destroyed in 70 AD.]

Deut 30:5-19 and EZ 36 talk of the cirucumcision and open exposure of the heart to God apart from Law along with Jer 31.
Dan 9 has Daniel acknowledging and confessing the curse of the law of Moses from the babylonian captivity that was prophesied in Deut 30:1-4 and then the angel interjects 490 yrs until the 'messiah'.

If He has true faith in God, ask him if He believed that a Good God would transcend time and space and physically enter into his creation to affirm that Faith once and for all and that was what was promised in Gen 3:15 to reverse the effects of the garden experience.

If he has true faith in a living creator God and in the GOODNESS of his creation which includes spoken and written language, would he acknowledge that his promise that individuals of all nations were to be blessed through the restoration to blessing by individual knowledge of God to all persons under Adam? And that this blessing would come through the temporary mosaic covenant experience, in contrast with it's principles, and be additionally confirmed and enhanced by the prophets and expereinces within that nation?

Would a GOOD God do that for his beloved people? And if so, would he pre-set the stage so that his existence would be confirmed without a doubt, and thus verify his teachings and instructions for a blessed life??

Your friend could come to a better understanding by being forever declared righteous and 'justified' even while being 'a sinner' JUST for his faith in God and his incarnation in Jesus.

P.S. It might also be important to consider weather his requests for forgiveness are against the Living God and his love for all Life; of if they are requests for forgiveness for offenses against the ordinances of his religion...[now judaism; not mosaic covenant national Israelism]....... Recall the pharisee and the publican......
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Last edited by Notrash; 5th May 2012 at 03:35 PM.
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Unread 3rd May 2012, 07:08 PM
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Ty notrash...peace
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Unread 5th May 2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dfw69 View Post
Ty notrash...peace
Originally Posted by dfw69 View Post
Hi reformed pharisee....what is the new covenant for the jews....i mean is the new covenant a new or renewed covenant?....what was the apostles testifying to israel co.serning the prophecy that god will make a new covenant?...is it new altogether or just a renewed covenant without the power of the law?
A few answers from my thoughts.

The NC was called "NEW" to the people who were then living [in Jeremiahs day] in and under the ordinances [heavens] and domain [judea] of the mosaic covenant. The mosaic covenant was not made with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah...etc.. [Deut 5:1-5] but began with the contractual conditional blessings of doing all contained in the law. It was formed through a 40 yr process from the drawing out of Egypt through the crossing of the Jordan. The crossing of the Jordan represented the voluntary contract with that law.

But the NC is just another additional name for the promise made to Eve of a seed of God and the woman to reverse the effects of the garden scenario. It is given additional characteristics to Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/israel, Epharim, David, and called a or 'the' covenant in Dan 9:26. God's incarnation in Love and the words and instruction of approval that he brought was characterized as a circumcison of the heart in Ez 36, Jer 31 and Deut 30: 5-19.

The OC elements would be used to help contrast and define the NC elements. The OC was corporal, conditional, temporal, racist, or national... etc. The NC is individual, yet associated, unconditional, everlasting, [both individually and generation to generation] to all peoples under Adam etc.

It declares people justified by faith [law of faith in Rom 3:31]for their belief in the good character of God and in the goodness of his life and in the fulfilled seed of eve; the person of Christ and his message contrary to law. Several places it talks about justifying the ungodly and then reforming their lifes.

The 40 yr process of the formation of the OC and the establishment of it's times and seasons was used as a pattern to verify the Everlasting covenant through the 40 yr process from 30 Ad to 70 AD and the open revealing [and protecting] of the favor of the kingdom of God [Christ] and his Ordinances of love, life and freedom.

Paul says that the law [mosaic covenant] could not anull the promise [parts of the everlasting covenant as made through Abraham]
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Last edited by Notrash; 5th May 2012 at 04:14 PM.
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Reps: 858,266,052,401,021 (power: 858,266,052,404)
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Farandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond reputeFarandaway has a reputation beyond repute
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