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Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion orthodox and unorthodox Christians only - A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. full preterism, unitarianism).

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  #31  
Unread 31st March 2012, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sdmsanjose View Post
Since all of this is going to come down to faith and who you will believe, I will stick with Daniel. There has been so called expert after expert that has challenged the Bible for centuries and they have not been able to prove it wrong.

I am going to take Daniel at his words as he has been time tested for centuries.
That's fine. We all have our faith. Now exactly which part of the Bible do you feel has been challenged unsuccessfully by which scholar?
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  #32  
Unread 1st April 2012, 02:40 PM
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Provide me with a verse with “sheol” in it that denotes “torture in hell”. Secondly, provide me with a verse where “olam” means “everlasting” or “eternal.”

Gen 21:33


Would you like a greek word that inarguably shows "eternal" to really mean "eternal"?
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  #33  
Unread 1st April 2012, 03:55 PM
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Get our your concordance and look it up for yourself.
  #34  
Unread 1st April 2012, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by gort View Post
Gen 21:3Would you like a greek word that inarguably shows "eternal" to really mean "eternal"?
Indeed...
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Hebrew nm. eternity


ורבים מישני אדמת-עפר יקיצו אלה לחיי עולם ואלה לחרפות לדראון עולם
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1Ch 25:5 all these were sons of Heman the king’s seer in the words of God, to exalt his power;Hozeh ("seer") also means "to see" or "to perceive," but is also used in reference to musicians. It is also used to describe a counselor or an advisor to a king. The Hebrew does not necessarily indicate that the person is a prophet, but rather an advisor—someone who has wisdom.
It means "one who has insight." Hence, the essential meaning in Greek is "interpreter."
  #35  
Unread 2nd April 2012, 07:04 AM
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Let’s take a look at Gen 21:33.

This is a classic example of how we as Christians have grown accustomed to the biases of so called scholarship - often unchallenged and with little regard for the rules of language.

If you read a typical English translation of this verse you will most likely find (as in almost all of the times where “olam” is present) the translation “eternal” or “everlasting.” For example;

Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called upon the name of the LORD, the Eternal (olam) God. (N.I.V)

Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba and called there on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God. (English Standard Version)

And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God. (K.J.V)


Is this REALLY the “inarguable” proof that “eternal/eternity” can be the correct translation for the Hebrew word “olam?” Is there a translation that is perhaps a little more honest in its scholarship?

Yes there is.

and Abraham planteth a tamarisk in Beer-Sheba, and preacheth there in the name of Jehovah, God age-during; (Young’s Literal Translation)

And why in the above version was “olam” translated “age-during” and NOT “everlasting?” Well, few on this forum seem to want to actually believe that;

"The Hebrew was destitute of any single word to express endless duration. The pure idea of eternity is NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THE ANCIENT LANGUAGES." Professor Knappe

It may be laid down as a rule that NO language had, for some time after the first century A.D., any term to denote eternity." (Whence Eternity?, By: Alexander Thomson, p. 5).

Inarguable? Really? Maybe.....just maybe God is the God of the AGES like this verse ACTUALLY states? This has nothing to do with the idea of “eternity” but everything to do with proving that God would be “enduring” through Abrahams life at least. Here is another example of God enduring the ages;

In Jer.7:7 and in 25:5, the Jews are urged to mend their ways that 'I may cause you to dwell in the land which I gave to your fathers 'from olam to olam'. (age to age)

Would “eternity” to “eternity” make sense here? Of course not! There is NO SUCH THING as MULTIPLE ETERNITIES!

Like I said, Good, honest scholarship, rids our poor English translations of the inconsistencies and contradictions that hamper our efforts to pursue the truth.

Suppose Hell is not eternal for just a split second...if you can manage that. Wouldn’t that be the ultimate revelation? Wouldn’t that change our view of God, if “hell” was not “eternal” torture but instead an “age” of chastisement for the wicked, to bring them into correction?

Bring out the knives people!
  #36  
Unread 2nd April 2012, 07:56 AM
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There is NO SUCH THING as MULTIPLE ETERNITIES!
O yeah? how would you know that kind of answer? did you ascend past the eternity and see what is outside of it? or do you think God is eternity? if God is eternity then it must be that we all are an eternity. because we are sons of God. and God is not in a box, and an eternity is a box, because it defines something. and God is past all and more. just think. even outside of a box, there are other boxes holding that box. like a box is in a house for instance, so there is something outside the house. because something that is contained has something else containing it. but God is not contained.

but I can take the Love of God further and say that hell is God. as we can compare the 4 faced living creatures with eyes all about that have 6 wings that have no rest day nor night saying holy holy holy. as the same as the people in hell burning and the smoke of their torment going up and they have no rest day nor night.

but in the new Jerusalem there is no night!

but I read the bible and God made a pact with leviathan, the serpent. can you believe that? he called leviathan jacob and israel. and have you not read that God plays with leviathan? his damsels play with leviathan. you do not play with your enemies but god loves his enemies enough to make them his friend of even his little children. as we are all his children we are also loved by God no matter if we are blind or not.

I can't out do God on mercy and Love and grace. so it must be that God had given those things to me. but i don't see how eternal torture is a bad thing, but rather good, as only God is good. now I ask God what is torture? because I am tortured by my lover, I burn with the fire of His! he is a consuming fire.

but it is the hard heart of man that refuses to hope all things in Christ. because eternal deletion or eternal torture is not hope at all. but God is also my hopelessness, because I am hopeless that I will ever go back to believing that God hates me or anyone else. praise be to God, who saves me from me, and orders me right back to normal. what i though was my evil was only a disorder of things but all is ordered correct in Christ. but you are still in evil if you do not abide in Christ. but if you are in Christ then all things are pure. because evil is blindness. and Christ is light. but in Christ, all things are pure.

Last edited by Noxot; 2nd April 2012 at 08:17 AM.
  #37  
Unread 2nd April 2012, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JPD View Post
Let’s take a look at Gen 21:33.

This is a classic example of how we as Christians have grown accustomed to the biases of so called scholarship - often unchallenged and with little regard for the rules of language.

If you read a typical English translation of this verse you will most likely find (as in almost all of the times where “olam” is present) the translation “eternal” or “everlasting.” For example;

Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called upon the name of the LORD, the Eternal (olam) God. (N.I.V)

Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba and called there on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God. (English Standard Version)

And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God. (K.J.V)


Is this REALLY the “inarguable” proof that “eternal/eternity” can be the correct translation for the Hebrew word “olam?” Is there a translation that is perhaps a little more honest in its scholarship?

Yes there is.
I gave you an example you asked for to show that olam means eternal.

The verse for eternal which means "eternal" in the NT is Rom_16:26. It shows God eternal. The same greek word is used for eternal life and eternal punishment from Mat_25:46

It's difficult for me to watch you parse out God as age-during in your attempts to defend universalism.
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  #38  
Unread 2nd April 2012, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by andreha View Post
Interesting point...

Me, I'd rather err on the side of safety. See, if the for ever and ever part is changed to age and age, or even age after age. Depending on the translation, one could come up with an age, or 2 ages - but the concept of "age after age" could very well point to eternity, which I think is hard to rule out altogether.

Thoughts?
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Unread 2nd April 2012, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gort View Post
I gave you an example you asked for to show that olam means eternal.

The verse for eternal which means "eternal" in the NT is Rom_16:26. It shows God eternal. The same greek word is used for eternal life and eternal punishment from Mat_25:46

It's difficult for me to watch you parse out God as age-during in your attempts to defend universalism.
Sorry Gort. Not true. The greek word is 'aion' and it does not and has never meant eternal. It has the same meaning as olam and means age. The word eternal didn't exist until the "vulgate' was published 300+ years after the early church started. The early church never even taught about eternity. And I don't believe that JPD ever said anything about universalism. That is just you making assumptions. There is a purpose for the lake of fire, but it isn't to punish, but to purify and cleanse.
  #40  
Unread 3rd April 2012, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by gasman64 View Post
Sorry Gort. Not true. The greek word is 'aion' and it does not and has never meant eternal. It has the same meaning as olam and means age. The word eternal didn't exist until the "vulgate' was published 300+ years after the early church started. The early church never even taught about eternity. And I don't believe that JPD ever said anything about universalism. That is just you making assumptions. There is a purpose for the lake of fire, but it isn't to punish, but to purify and cleanse.
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