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  #1  
Old 19th March 2012, 02:17 PM
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five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come and there is also the eighth...

1) Egypt
2) Assyria
3) Babylon
4) Medo-Persia
5) Greece

is
6) Pagan Rome

is not, continue a short time
7) Papal Rome

eight, is of the seven
8) America

BoWing
__________

1) Babylon
2) Medo Persia
3) Greece
4) Pagan Rome
5) PaPal Rome (point of reference of Rev.17:3; deadly wound in 1798)

6) Atheistic France (one that is after 1798)

7) Apostate Protestantism (one that is to come when church and state unite; image of the beast)

8) Papal Rome... the one which is of the seven who was before 1798, is not after 1798 because of the deadly wound) and is again when the wound is healed as Apostate Protestantism shall revive the beast by enforcing Sunday and by giving power and authority to her.

sky
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  #2  
Old 19th March 2012, 06:33 PM
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I would definitely start with the Babylonians but would divert to America after papal Rome (one that is) with the seventh being the UN or some other form of world wide confederacy. The papal power would definitely be the eighth being in league with the coming world wide power.

The reason why I pick the US and a UN-like power is the list has to remain consistent and atheistic France and apostate protestantism were not world powers.
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Old 19th March 2012, 09:14 PM
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When one takes Rev.17:3 as the point of reference for the five that have fallen, given by the revelator himself, everything falls into place. It is not a human assumption or speculation but a revealed fact. 1798 is the revealed point of reference.

In all due respect BoWing took John's own day as the point of reference for the 5 that have fallen. I have no way of knowing if he was aware of that. He may have been quoting from someone. I know that Uriah Smith took John's own day as the point of reference but he obviously was wrong on that.

If we take John's own day as the point of reference we have to include Egypt and Assyria but these two are not mentioned in the visions of the prophet Daniel. Now let us see what we have if we take John's own day as the point of reference.

5 have fallen:

1) Greece
2) Medo Persia
3) Babylon
4) Egypt
5) Assyria

One is:

Pagan Rome

And three are yet to come

Papal Rome
Atheistic France
Apostate Protestantism when it shall reveive a kingdom.

But the prophecy says that after the one that is, one is yet to come, not three!

But if we take Rev.17:3 as the revealed point of reference, which is 1798, we now have:

5 have fallen

1) Papal Rome
2) Pagan Rome
3) Greece
4) Medo-Persia
5) Babylon the head of gold

One is:

Atheistic France

One is yet to come:

Apostate Protestantism

And then there is the eighth which is one of the seven who was, is not, and yet is again and that is the Papal power who before 1798 was, after 1798 is not, and yet is again when the wound is healed.

sky
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Old 27th March 2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rainbowinthesky View Post
1) Egypt
2) Assyria
3) Babylon
4) Medo-Persia
5) Greece

is
6) Pagan Rome

is not, continue a short time
7) Papal Rome

eight, is of the seven
8) America

BoWing
__________

1) Babylon
2) Medo Persia
3) Greece
4) Pagan Rome
5) PaPal Rome (point of reference of Rev.17:3; deadly wound in 1798)

6) Atheistic France (one that is after 1798)

7) Apostate Protestantism (one that is to come when church and state unite; image of the beast)

8) Papal Rome... the one which is of the seven who was before 1798, is not after 1798 because of the deadly wound) and is again when the wound is healed as Apostate Protestantism shall revive the beast by enforcing Sunday and by giving power and authority to her.

sky
This passage always intrigues me...

Good to see you sky..
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Old 28th March 2012, 10:10 AM
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Hey red, so does it still intrigue you?

It intrigued me for many years as well but now it is
so clear to me that the papacy which is of the
seven is the only one about whom it can be said
she was, is not, and is again when her wound is
healed.

sky
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Old 28th March 2012, 04:11 PM
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There seems to be some confusion regarding Rev. 17:10:

And there are seven kings; five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 13:1 tells us the heads have blasphemous names written on them. This indicates they are religious in nature and they are anti-Christ. Also, one head was wounded, but the deadly wound was healed when the composite beast comes up from the sea. The head that was wounded is the papacy. There are seven heads, that is, there are seven of the same thing. Because the wounded/healed head represents a religious system (the papacy), the remaining six heads must also represent religious systems.

When Jesus came to Earth, five religious systems fell. In other words, Jesus declared five religious systems were false.

1) Atheism
2) Heathenism
3) Judaism
4) Eastern Mysticism
5) Islam

The sixth head (Christianity) was just beginning in John's day. Eventually, this head was called the Roman Catholic Church. It became a false religion and blasphemous over time. The seventh head appeared on Earth around 1500 AD and it is called Protestantism.

Rev 17:11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Satan will physically appear and dominate the seven heads. The devil will establish an eighth religious system and he will rule over the religious systems of the world. The devil will be destroyed at the end, but not by human power.

YSIC,
MidnightCry
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Old 28th March 2012, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MidnightCry View Post
There seems to be some confusion regarding Rev. 17:10:

And there are seven kings; five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 13:1 tells us the heads have blasphemous names written on them. This indicates they are religious in nature and they are anti-Christ. Also, one head was wounded, but the deadly wound was healed when the composite beast comes up from the sea. The head that was wounded is the papacy. There are seven heads, that is, there are seven of the same thing. Because the wounded/healed head represents a religious system (the papacy), the remaining six heads must also represent religious systems.

When Jesus came to Earth, five religious systems fell. In other words, Jesus declared five religious systems were false.

1) Atheism
2) Heathenism
3) Judaism
4) Eastern Mysticism
5) Islam

The sixth head (Christianity) was just beginning in John's day. Eventually, this head was called the Roman Catholic Church. It became a false religion and blasphemous over time. The seventh head appeared on Earth around 1500 AD and it is called Protestantism.

Rev 17:11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Satan will physically appear and dominate the seven heads. The devil will establish an eighth religious system and he will rule over the religious systems of the world. The devil will be destroyed at the end, but not by human power.

YSIC,
MidnightCry
Just a comment off the top of my head.

Maybe the reason I became a Protestant is I'm just not deep enough to follow all this stuff. You folks are at a place in prophesy where I can't understand enough to try to refute it, or confirm it. Carry on.
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Old 31st March 2012, 05:41 PM
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five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come and there is also the eighth

It has been a while because I am working on some articles. One of them soon will deal with this issue. When studying prophecies we first must understand the time of the prophecy, how it applies to man and the history is presents. You cannot understand the Bible unless you understand history.
Rev 1:1 specifically gives us the time. The Father gives to His Son the final event that will take place on this earth. Dan 12:9 states clearly to Daniel that what he viewed also at the TIME of the end. Even EGW states clearly that the TIME of the end would begin in 1798 so how could that possibly be France!
We next need understand how this applies to man. If we are dealing with the last days and YAHWEH specifically starts out dealing with the people who will stand just before His Son returns. Dan 12:1-3, 10-13, Matt 24:15-21, Rev 1:3, 6, 9; 3:14-20, 12:7
Next is the historical events that exactly given in prophecies. You cannot understand this text unless you start with Daniel Chapter Seven. I have stated repeatedly that these beasts dealt with religion because two of the last three beasts (not the fourth) appear in Dan Chapter Eight. However, they are different animals but the two same kingdoms the difference is they are political! The beasts are exactly historically correct five had fallen: Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Persia, and Greece. One is represents Rome as pagan Rome and one just for a little while is Papacy Rome. However, here is the problem that some SDA do not want to understand. That this beast is a mystery and only those who truly have the testimony of Yashua, which means having extra oil of understanding, will receive the knowledge.
The fourth beast deals with all of the six beasts and their false religions. However, the last three has combined the other religions with their beliefs. The dead really do not died, a false Messiah called Christ or Mithra, one deity with three different personalities with a pagan name called god. The king thinks he is a deity. False feast days versus YAHWEH true ones starting with the Sunday instead of Sunday. Deities having human traits and mating with humans, pagan symbols like the cross (Egypt ankh), evergreen tree, ornaments and so much more. If this is true then Rev shows it as well as Daniel that the last three made of Babylon (Lion), Persia (the bear in its religion aspect and a ram politically, Greece (the leopard in its religion aspect and a goat politically). In addition, Rome came out of the goat in the next chapter and she has always been identified as Greco-Rom (Dan 8:8, 9). That is what Daniel saw because he clearly saw that it stamped its feet like a bear and iron teeth (that represent Rome) and it was different from the other three beasts. Simply because it looked like what was given in Rev 13:1, it had a lion head with seven heads attached to it. On its head were ten horns and not the seven other head (Dan 7:20). Feet of Bear Persia, body of a leopard which represent Greece!
Historians when dealing with ancient digs must decipher various symbols and what they stand for in relation to reality. The heads represent empires, the horn, kingdoms so when the papacy head was wounded the beast himself almost died. The papacy is no longer an empire but a church known as a whorish woman (Rev 1-5). To identify the beast/man we must eliminate the United States because Rev 13:11 states it is the lamb like beast. Only animal that has horns like a lamb is the buffalo! Rev 17: is very plain stating that the beast/man is of the seventh. Simply it means that someone will leave the Catholic Church who had power and political/Religious status! Whoever this man is will completely hate what he once believed including Yahweh. He will joined with Satan and become his son and have great powers. He will war with the Catholic Church and her allies and he is the eighth that will be destroyed (Dan 7:11; 11:27-45; 12:11; Matt 24:15; 2Thes 2:5-10; Rev 11:7; 13:1-3; 16:10-16; 17:1, 8-14; 19:19, 20. He will rule the world like Nimrod but only a short time to be burned by Yashua at His coming!

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri
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Old 1st April 2012, 05:04 PM
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Sky, I would say differently regarding the 2 last heads. I'm not trying to be contentious, but if it is, I apologize

In Revelation 17:10, one head "is". That is, when it is written, the 6th head exists. Since this is during the time that the Papal beast (5th head) is out of action (the beast that "was" and "is not"), and America existed and was established by this point, America can fulfill this role well.

But another reason is because of how Atheist France is referred to in Revelation 11:13. It is referred to as "the tenth part of the city". Which city? The one referred to in Revelation 11:8. I won't go into details unless you ask, but that "great city" and the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" is Babylon. That is, the prophecy classifies Atheistic France as a subunit of Babylon, particularly the Papal beast.

The point? In the prophecy, Atheistic France is not a world power. It is part of a world power. It is 1 out of 10 horns. America, on the other hand, gets its own beast and plays a very dominant role in the end times. If God had to pick an empire to represent as a head with the likes of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Papacy, America is the much more logical pick.

I would peg the last head as the united 10 kingdoms found in Revelation 17. Here's why:

1.) In Revelation 17:12, the angel informs John that the 10 horns have no kingdom yet. This implies that they will eventually have a kingdom. The passage calls them kings, and it is fitting that kings should eventually have a kingdom. Revelation 17:17 echoes this, specifically saying that they have kingdoms to give to the beast. This makes them a potential target for the 7th head.

2.) Revelation 17:10 says that the last one "must continue a short space". This indicates time. Between Apostate Protestantism and the 10 horns, the 10 horns is promised a short space of time to reign with the beast. Revelation 17:12 says that it reigns for 1 hour. As the "image of the beast", Apostate Protestantism does not have a set time to reign. This favors the 10 horns.

3.) In Revelation 13:11, it says that the second beast "speaks like a dragon". When does this happen? When the "image of the beast" is set up in Revelation 13:15. "...the image of the beast should both speak..." It treats the second beast and the "image of the beast" as one entity when it is first introduced in Revelation 13:11 by saying right off the bat that the second beast "spake as a dragon".

Compare this to Revelation 13:2, when Rome gave the Papacy its power, and Revelation 13:5, when Rome gave the Papacy its ability to "speak". But here, two separate entities come together. One beast gives its power to another.

The short version of point 3 is this: Rome and the Papacy are counted as 2 heads because they are treated as separate beasts. The second beast and the "image of the beast", however, are treated as a single beast. America and Apostate Protestantism overlap, allowing for the 10 kings to have a spot.

A lot to swallow at once, I know. But if you have objections, let me know. The truth loses nothing by inquiry.
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Old 1st April 2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by EastCoastRemnant View Post
I would definitely start with the Babylonians but would divert to America after papal Rome (one that is) with the seventh being the UN or some other form of world wide confederacy. The papal power would definitely be the eighth being in league with the coming world wide power.

The reason why I pick the US and a UN-like power is the list has to remain consistent and atheistic France and apostate protestantism were not world powers.
I concur Xenon... one of the rules of prophetic interpretation is that you have to follow the pattern established in a multi faceted vision as this. World powers are the precedent set and must be followed...
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