| Spirit-Filled / Charismatic The forum for all charismatic churches and movements. |
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14th March 2012, 11:14 PM
|  | Untatted Saint
   
 | | Join Date: 15th September 2003 Location: Tasmania
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Reps: 209,572,698,437,917,056 (power: 209,572,698,437,932) | | | Well said Yitzchak Well worth the trouble of putting that together |
15th March 2012, 03:08 AM
|  | Senior Veteran
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| | Join Date: 28th March 2005 Location: Auckland New Zealand
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Reps: 289,861,933,741,265,856 (power: 289,861,933,741,279) | | Originally Posted by JimB  C'mon Oscarr, I have as much right to say that as you do that Jesus only healed those who came to him for healing and that he healed "everyone" who came to him for healing because the Bible seems to indicate as much (although the Bible never really says that). Anyhow, everywhere Jesus went there were sick people and he did not heal them all or there would eventually have been no sick people where he went. Do you believe Jesus ever went through the Beautiful Gate (the main entrance to the Temple)? If he did he must have passed the lame man who "laid daily" at that gate to beg for alms (Acts 3) ... and he did not heal him. How does your theology explain that?  ~Jim I honestly don't know. Haven't got the answer to that one.
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I was a young man and now I am old and I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread. |
15th March 2012, 03:37 AM
| | Untatted Saint
| | Join Date: 15th September 2003 Location: Tasmania
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Reps: 209,572,698,437,917,056 (power: 209,572,698,437,932) | | | Maybe I could help you Oscarr\
I believe that all those at the gate were equivalent to those who go to evangelists meetings hoping that they will be the one that gets a miracle that night. The Holy Spirit upon the waters is like the operation of the gifts of healings -not all those who want healing will receive it that way. What God is looking for is the operation of faith in the believer and that those at the gate would be better served spiritually at the temple or in our terms within our bodies -the temple of the Holy Spirit. |
15th March 2012, 06:39 AM
|  | Relationship over Religion
48  
| | Join Date: 8th January 2004 Location: California
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Reps: 330,030,490,564,028,160 (power: 330,030,490,564,040) | | | So yeah, it's a really nice theology, one that's difficult to refute. The difference though between this theology and so many others is that it demands proof. Or at least, to anyone not indoctrinated by it we demand proof.
And why not? In the past 30-40 years that this has been taught, has ANYONE lived a life free from sickness? I know many people use mind over matter tactics and CLAIM that they live sickness free, but in reality does it "work"?
Mormons believe in their church, and everything their church teaches them. They each felt that burning in the bosom that proves that anything their church teaches them (no matter how ridiculous it may sound to the rest of us) is truth. One true sign of a cult is in the requirement that it's people do not look for proof outside of what the cult teaches them!
We have heard it repeated several times that proof of the WOF doctrine is irrelevant. It doesn't seem to matter to the faithful if nobody in the entire world has managed to live sickness and poverty free. All that matters is that somebody dug this doctrine out of the Bible and they believe it's true!
I gave the WOF message a shot, and found it doesn't work in the real world. I found in my relationship with God that He lead me away from that into other things. I still believe in the words of the founder, Kenneth Hagin when he said: "Faith begins when the will of God is known." Only, I don't presume to know the will of God based upon a questionable interpretation of the Bible. IMO God is still active and alive, and His will is revealed to us personally through the promptings of the Holy Spirit; not through a theology that has failed to prove itself.
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Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
"I think a servant of the enemy would look fairer and feel fouler." ~ Frodo Baggins |
15th March 2012, 08:45 AM
|  | Legend
35  
| | Join Date: 16th August 2005 Location: PA
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Reps: 566,743,855,287,629,376 (power: 566,743,855,287,654) | | Originally Posted by Tobias It doesn't seem to matter to the faithful if nobody in the entire world has managed to live sickness and poverty free. All that matters is that somebody dug this doctrine out of the Bible and they believe it's true!
I once heard an atheist use this exact same logic to cast doubt on salvation; "It doesn't seem to matter to the faithful if nobody in the entire world has managed to see heaven. All that matters is that somebody dug this doctrine out of the Bible and they believe it's true!" Originally Posted by Tobias I gave the WOF message a shot,
This always amuses me, as if the WoF message is something you try on like a new pair of shoes to see if you like it. Originally Posted by Tobias and found it doesn't work in the real world.
What is it exactly that "doesn't work" for you? Originally Posted by Tobias I found in my relationship with God that He lead me away from that into other things.
Then follow that leading where it may take you. Originally Posted by Tobias I still believe in the words of the founder, Kenneth Hagin when he said: "Faith begins when the will of God is known." Only, I don't presume to know the will of God based upon a questionable interpretation of the Bible.
Sure you do. Saying that it's not God's will to heal all the time is presuming to know that it's not God's will to heal all the time. IOW, saying something is not God's will is exactly the same as saying you know what His will is. You've just fooled yourself into believing that you're not presuming anything any more, but really, you're just presuming something different. Originally Posted by Tobias IMO God is still active and alive, and His will is revealed to us personally through the promptings of the Holy Spirit; not through a theology that has failed to prove itself.
I don't disagree with the first part of what you just said; I believe that God speaks to us personally still today and prompts us what to do. But that doesn't mean I just toss aside the very clear example that Jesus gave us concerning healing, or worse, come up with some other off-the-wall theology that God sends sickness to punish people, when Jesus (who came to show us the Father) did no such thing with people caught in sin who needed healing. 
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"You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
"I am who I am, and I say what I mean." |
15th March 2012, 09:50 AM
|  | Staying in the middle of the road.
54 
| | Join Date: 15th November 2006 Location: Earth
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Reps: 297,590,039,674,313,408 (power: 297,590,039,674,332) | | Originally Posted by JimB [color=black]
Okay, since you have quoted the old company line that "the Word" is "evidence" that the Father wants everyone physically healed, perhaps you can show me where the Bible actually (plainly and unambiguously, please) says that. I contend, and will be happy to offer scripture, that tells us tthere are times when God not only uses sickness to accomplish his will but times when even causes people, even his own people, to be ill in order to either discipline or reprove them.
~Jim
So if theology never healed anybody, what is making the difference in the frequency. By your own words it isn't anyone's theology, even yours.
__________________ Pragmatism is the exact opposite of faith. Pragmatism says, "If it works, I'll accept and believe it." Faith says, "What I accept and believe is based entirely upon God's written Word, the Bible." Saying the body we receive after physical death is a renewed or ultimately healed body is incorrect, to the point of absurdity; equal to having a 1990 banged up Chevy, then receiving a 2011 Cadillac and telling people it's your Chevy after it was repaired.
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15th March 2012, 10:18 AM
|  | Senior Member
 
| | Join Date: 4th March 2004 Location: America
Posts: 2,206
Blessings: 5,670,464
Reps: 334,194,313,208,274,944 (power: 334,194,313,208,286) | | | I have a friend who believed it's always God's will to heal.
I spent miserable hours sitting with him in hospital while his young wife lay dying in a nearby ward. Their small children were at home.
He contacted all the local 'healers', and would only let people visit her bedside who absolutely believed it was God's will to heal her. I did not visit her bedside.
She died the next day.
Then he was believing for her resurrection.
Looking back, it could have been a wonderful time of peace and trusting God, in His sovereignty, in His ability to take a life home to Heaven, or heal a life and give them a few more years on this earth.
That's when Christianity should be worth more than gold. The faith and calm assurance in a sovereign Father who loves us.
But instead the emphasis was on the Christians, do you have enough faith, are you praying enough, believing enough, don't let any doubt even enter your mind.
What a miserable experience, and a horrible doctrine.
peace,
Simon |
15th March 2012, 10:18 AM
|  | Legend
| | Join Date: 12th July 2004 Location: Nacogdoches, Texas
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Reps: 773,353,004,994,476,928 (power: 773,353,004,994,510) | | Originally Posted by Simply Put So if theology never healed anybody, what is making the difference in the frequency. By your own words it isn't anyone's theology, even yours. I am told (including in in this forum) that since I no longer believe the "correct" theology regarding faith and healing (the WOF brand chili), I must never see anyone healed. Fact is, though, I see as many (if not more) people healed in answer to prayer today as I did when I held my mouth right when I prayed for the sick. I have learned that when God wills to heal the sick he sometimes allows me along for the ride to participate with him in the process, but he does not heal the sick because of me or because my theology is correct or my faith is stronger than someone else's. He heals because he chooses to heal ... with or without me. ~Jim
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__________________ An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. ~Jef Mallett It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them. ~Pierre Beaumarchais |
15th March 2012, 10:51 AM
| | Staying in the middle of the road.
54
| | Join Date: 15th November 2006 Location: Earth
Posts: 12,209
Blessings: 12,327,729 My Mood
Reps: 297,590,039,674,313,408 (power: 297,590,039,674,332) | | Originally Posted by JimB I am told (including in in this forum) that since I no longer believe the "correct" theology regarding faith and healing (the WOF brand chili), I must never see anyone healed. Fact is, though, I see as many (if not more) people healed in answer to prayer today as I did when I held my mouth right when I prayed for the sick. I have learned that when God wills to heal the sick he sometimes allows me along for the ride to participate with him in the process, but he does not heal the sick because of me or because my theology is correct or my faith is stronger than someone else's. He heals because he chooses to heal ... with or without me. ~Jim
`
Thank you for sharing your Vineyard chili - but the question remains
If, as your chili says, theology never healed anyone, and now that you have changed theology - you supposedly see more people healed - what made the difference, if it wasn't the chili - theology?
If God heals as He wills - why wouldn't the people get healed anyway? No matter your theology? Why has changing to a different belief changed the frequency of the healings you are seeing, if your theology has nothing to do with healing?
__________________ Pragmatism is the exact opposite of faith. Pragmatism says, "If it works, I'll accept and believe it." Faith says, "What I accept and believe is based entirely upon God's written Word, the Bible." Saying the body we receive after physical death is a renewed or ultimately healed body is incorrect, to the point of absurdity; equal to having a 1990 banged up Chevy, then receiving a 2011 Cadillac and telling people it's your Chevy after it was repaired.
Want a scriptural reply to: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. |
15th March 2012, 11:02 AM
| | Legend
35
| | Join Date: 16th August 2005 Location: PA
Posts: 17,239
Blessings: 4,392,437
Reps: 566,743,855,287,629,376 (power: 566,743,855,287,654) | | Originally Posted by JimB Fact is, though, I see as many (if not more) people healed in answer to prayer today as I did when I held my mouth right when I prayed for the sick.
If theology does not matter at all when it comes to healing, why do you claim that you see more people healed today?
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"You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
"I am who I am, and I say what I mean." | | |
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