| Spirit-Filled / Charismatic The forum for all charismatic churches and movements. |
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13th March 2012, 06:03 PM
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Reps: 773,353,004,994,476,928 (power: 773,353,004,994,510) | | Originally Posted by TasManOfGod  No - the problem is that when some pray for people and they dont get healed they default to a theology that is not in the Bible; namely that it must not be God's will for that person to be healed.
The log jamb is not in God's court but in ours and if we don't do somethjing about our lack then it is likely that many will stay in their sick condition -particularly if we have also told them that it must be God's will for them to be sick. Does not this theology reek of applying the works of the devil onto God? - unfortunately YES Typical. And what do you do when you pray for people and they are not healed? Do you beat yourself up for not having worked up enough faith or do you blame the suffering victim for their lack of faith? There's something to be said about resting in the will of God. Incidentally, I still pray for the sick and see the sick healed with more frequency today than when I did when I shared your belief. But then, theology never healed anybody. ~Jim `
__________________ An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. ~Jef Mallett It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them. ~Pierre Beaumarchais |
13th March 2012, 06:57 PM
|  | Relationship over Religion
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The test of a prophet is if we see what he says come true. What is the test of a theology?
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Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
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13th March 2012, 07:11 PM
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Reps: 289,861,933,741,265,856 (power: 289,861,933,741,279) | | | Jesus is our only model for healing. He clearly showed that it is God's will to heal all who come to Him. He demonstrated it again and again through the Gospels, and He probably did a lot more than what was written if we take John's word for it.
We forget that the church is not the model.
Nor are our big name healing ministries the model.
We ourselves are not the model.
Only Jesus.
The problem is that 85% of the church is operating at the carnal level. This is what Paul told the Corinthians in chapter 3 of 1 Corinthians. He said that he could not speak to them as spiritual people, but as babes in Christ, because they could not bear strong meat.
Jesus said that His meat is doing God's will. He declared that God's will for the church is to heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, and declare the kingdom of God. Paul told the Corinthians that when he was coming to minister to them, he was not going to come with the enticing words of man's wisdom but with demonstration of the Spirit and in power, because he said that the kingdom of God is not in word but in power.
Because most of today's church is operating nowhere near what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians, then we can only conclude that it is operating far below even the standard at which the Corinthians were operating at the time Paul wrote his letter to them! And he said that he was writing to people who were carnal and not spiritual!
So, are we to conclude that 85% of our P/C churches (let's keep the traditional churches aside for now) are operating at the carnal level? It seems so.
So, the barrenness of results in the church's healing ministry is not God's fault. He has provided all the resources we need through the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The trouble is that churches and people are not believing it. They do not believe that they can be what the Word of God says they are, and can do what the Word says they can do.
Too many churches, even some of our best ones, are trusting in the wisdom of man and not the Word of God. As soon as a church group builds a massive big church building, they have exchanged their trust from being in God's Word, to their organisation and building, when all they have is just a gigantic Jewish synagogue.
Most P/C churches are no better than synagagues. They are so formalised that they are trusting in their theology, personal skills, and organisations to bring results. Many of them are not even operating in the gifts of the Spirit these days!
So, in this context, blaming God or saying that healing may not be His will, is just a cop out to justify sheer pride and unbelief.
It is man's fault that people are not healed, not God's.
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13th March 2012, 07:13 PM
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Reps: 2,287,151,683,944,507,136 (power: 2,287,151,683,944,524) | | | How many people have been prayed for to be saved and were not?
Was it then not God's Will to save them.
That contradicts scripture as we know it is His will that all be saved.
They were not saved for the same many reasons people are not healed.
People are not healed because they are not in faith but in foolishness and/or presumption. |
13th March 2012, 10:24 PM
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Reps: 289,861,933,741,265,856 (power: 289,861,933,741,279) | | Originally Posted by Optimax How many people have been prayed for to be saved and were not?
Was it then not God's Will to save them.
That contradicts scripture as we know it is His will that all be saved.
They were not saved for the same many reasons people are not healed.
People are not healed because they are not in faith but in foolishness and/or presumption. A lot of people are not saved because the church refuses to use the resources provided by the Holy Spirit that are available to them to make the Gospel powerful. Most are depending on words of persuasion without providing any proof that Jesus is really alive and that the Gospel is really true. Just telling people is not enough. Most people in today's societies do not believe the Bible, so they can be preached to, witnessed to, until the cows come home with little effect. The way that Jesus presented the kingdom of God was that He healed the sick, miraculously restored the disabled and the blind, and cast out demons. This vindicated His teaching. Did you know that in John 10, Jesus says that if we don't see the signs and wonders, we need not believe His words? It is the same today. The church is using words without the vindication of the supernatural signs and wonders; and then they are sitting around wondering why people will not believe the Gospel they are preaching. It is because they are preaching an incomplete Gospel without the supernatural. This is because there is a strong belief that people will believe the Gospel just on the words we speak to them. It is a belief that the Bible has some sort of magical power in its words to convince people of what it says concerning Salvation. Of course, this is nonsense, because if Jesus believed that mere words could convince people, then He would not have healed them or cast the demons out of them first before giving them teaching. So, if we are going to do what Jesus did (which is expected of us), we would go out into the community, heal the sick, restore the disabled, recover sight to the blind, and cast out demons. Then, after getting their attention through the signs and wonders, we would then give the teaching about how to come to Christ. Saying that people do not have faith to be healed is also something that Jesus did not believe. Most times He did not wait to see if a person had faith before He healed them, although He did acknowledge and welcome faith when He saw it. It is interesting to note that the greatest faith that He saw was from the Centurion and the Syrophoenician woman, both of whom were Gentiles. They had great faith because they pressed into the Lord for healing even though they knew that healing was not for Gentiles at that time. Did Lazarus have faith? If he did, he would have got healed before he died. Accusing the sick that they do not have faith to be healed is a lame excuse for the unbelieve and faithlessness of those whose responsibility it is to heal the sick. These signs shall follow those who believe... they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. It is the person ministering healing who needs faith to get a sick person healed. John Wesley had a horse called Hank. One day it went lame, so Wesley prayed for it and it got healed, enabling him to carry on to where he was going. Thank goodness that horse had faith to be healed!
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I was a young man and now I am old and I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread. |
13th March 2012, 11:38 PM
| | Laura Phillips
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14th March 2012, 02:22 AM
|  | Untatted Saint
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Reps: 209,572,698,437,917,056 (power: 209,572,698,437,932) | | Originally Posted by JimB Typical. very typical And what do you do when you pray for people and they are not healed? Do you beat yourself up for not having worked up enough faith or do you blame the suffering victim for their lack of faith?
No you realise you haven't realy "studied to show yourself approved" ---- might I suggest a good Bible college -Rhema pehaps There's something to be said about resting in the will of God.
Of course -particularly when you have a good grasp of what the will of God actually is. Incidentally, I still pray for the sick and see the sick healed with more frequency today than when I did when I shared your belief. But then, theology never healed anybody.
No but erroneous theology can keep people sick. |
14th March 2012, 04:30 AM
|  | God's sparrow
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If we lose that respect about God being God then I think we put ourselves as little gods and that is not good really.
God responds to us trusting in Him, to our faith He really does I just reckon He must be sad when He sees people who arent healed being made to feel bad that they werent healed or people who prayed for healing and it didnt happen having to spend lots of time trying to figure out what they did wrong when they could be doing something else more useful cos they probably didnt do anything wrong!
guilt inducing doctrine doesnt really appeal to me that much anymore.
when i moved to a church that welcomes disabled people as they are with no pressure to become 'like everyone else' (i.e. healed...) it was so nice. It was like there was God with a smile and could just enjoy being loved.
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God's sparrow Ps 84:3
..may He work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 13:21
One of the proofs of the divinity of our gospel is the preaching it has survived.
-- Woodrow Wilson
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14th March 2012, 04:34 AM
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Reps: 289,861,933,741,265,856 (power: 289,861,933,741,279) | | Originally Posted by Laura Phillips If the person is making themself sick well it is definitely God's willl So, if God decides to heal a self inflicted sickness, then He is going against His own will? There have been testimonies of people being healed of cancer brought on by years of smoking.
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I was a young man and now I am old and I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread. |
14th March 2012, 04:39 AM
| | Senior Veteran
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Reps: 289,861,933,741,265,856 (power: 289,861,933,741,279) | | Originally Posted by FoundInGrace I don't think we can make God do anything.
If we lose that respect about God being God then I think we put ourselves as little gods and that is not good really.
God responds to us trusting in Him, to our faith He really does I just reckon He must be sad when He sees people who arent healed being made to feel bad that they werent healed or people who prayed for healing and it didnt happen having to spend lots of time trying to figure out what they did wrong when they could be doing something else more useful cos they probably didnt do anything wrong!
guilt inducing doctrine doesnt really appeal to me that much anymore.
when i moved to a church that welcomes disabled people as they are with no pressure to become 'like everyone else' (i.e. healed...) it was so nice. It was like there was God with a smile and could just enjoy being loved. One point that most people miss: supernatural healing was God's idea. The way that Jesus went about healing people was also God's idea. It was God's plan and purpose to get us baptised in the Spirit so as we believe, we will lay hands on the sick and they will recover. Funny how the verse does not say that the sick might recover. So, if people don't get healed, is that God's fault, or that there is something wrong with the wording of the Scripture, or is it our fault that we are not applying the Word of God correctly to sick and disabled people?
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I was a young man and now I am old and I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread. | | |
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