Discuss Praying "If it be Thy will"

Simon Peter · #**131** 16th March 2012, 10:44 PM

Here's my contextual exegesis:

Exegetical Interpretation of 1 Peter 2:24-25
Part One of Two

1 Peter 2:24-25
24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
25 For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. (NIV)

These two verses are found in the pericope of 1 Peter 2:18-25

18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
19 For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.
20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."
23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.
24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
25 For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. (NIV)

Historical context in general

The author identifies himself as the apostle Peter in 1:1, though it is likely that Peter dictated the letter to his companion Silas; who did the actual writing. He suggests he is writing from “Babylon” in 5:13 though this is probably a metaphor for Rome. It is unknown when 1 Peter was written, though there’s some evidence that it was written prior to AD 64 and no earlier than AD 60.

The recipients are stated in 1:1 as being “God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia” which appears to be mostly Gentile - and some Jewish - believers in the northwest quadrant of Asia Minor in the vicinity of today’s Turkey. Although the recipients were probably not known personally by Peter, he clearly felt an empathy and kinship with them. The letter was written in a fitting pastoral style, with urgency, concern, firmness and humility.

Peter had heard of their suffering and various trials they were experiencing. These trials appear to have included persecution, but nothing like the immensely brutal martyrdom that Emperor Nero initiated in AD 64. The recipients of this letter don’t appear to be in imminent danger of losing their lives, but do seem to be facing communal persecution - particularly in the workplace - that likely included verbal insults and undeserved physical beatings among other forms of maltreatment.

Recipient’s specific situation

The content of the 1 Peter letter hints at the sufferings of the recipients, in a number of places:

“had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials” (1:6; 4:12)
“rejected by men” (2:4)
Accused by the pagans (2:12).
Suffering unjustly (2:19; 3:14)
Undergoing “beatings” (2:20)
“insulted” (3:9; 4:14)
“slander” (3:16)
“they heap abuse on you” (4:4)

To understand more clearly the intent of the letter, we should also ask: How were the Christians in Asia Minor acting or responding to their suffering and trials? The letter gives us some clues concerning their behavior:

Returning to evil desires (1:14)
Malice, deceit, hypocrisy, envy, slander (2:1; 3:10)
Not submitting to various authorities (2:13)
Looking to outward adornment (3:3)
Not treating others with respect (2:17)
Not submitting to or respecting Masters or Husbands (2:18; 3:1)
Possibly retaliating or making threats (2:23)
Discord in the church (3:8)
Repaying evil with evil and insult with insult (3:9)
Fear (3:6, 14)
Anxiety (5:7)

Many may have wondered at God’s purpose in their suffering. It’s easy to imagine them losing heart and questioning His faithfulness. Particularly, as it appears Peter was also addressing recent believers (2:2-3).

These were probably the circumstances that prompted the writing of this ‘situational’ letter. Peter’s main goal was to encourage the believers to live holy lives in their suffering, to stand firm. It is this purpose that drives and influences all the text, with emphasis on submitting to every authority, being a witness to the pagans (even their persecutors), to be encouraged by their identity in Christ who is an example to be followed, and to hope in Christ; all this even while suffering.

Key words and background information

A review of seven different English translations of the pericope, revealed a number of words that were translated differently; with the following considered significant:
Slaves/servants (verse 18)
Author’s probable meaning: “household slave”

Fear/respect (verse 18)
Author’s probable meaning: “respect”

Conscience/conscious/mindful/aware (verse 19)
Author’s probable meaning: “conscience” (morally aware)

Bore/bear/carried (verse 24)
Author’s probable meaning: “took up” (bore/carried)

Tree/cross (verse 24)
Author’s probable meaning: “cross”

Overseer/Bishop/Guardian (verse 25)
Author’s probable meaning: “Guardian”

Isaianic background

The whole pericope (1 Peter 2:18-25) must be understood in the context of Isaiah 53:3-12, to which it alludes and even quotes from. This passage in Isaiah vividly foretold the suffering of Christ, which is foundational to our understanding of the paragraph in 1 Peter.

Isaiah 53:3-12

3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (NIV)

Peter used Isaiah 53:3-12 to reinforce a number of points that he wanted to communicate. In general, these points were:

Jesus suffered unjustly (1 Peter 2:22-23 & Isaiah 53:7, 9);
Jesus was innocent (1 Peter 2:22 & Isaiah 53:9);
Jesus did not retaliate (1 Peter 2:23 & Isaiah 53:7);
Jesus entrusted Himself to God who judges justly (1 Peter 2:23 & Isaiah 53:10-12);
Jesus bore their sins, so they might die to sin and live in righteousness (1 Peter 2:24 & Isaiah 53:11-12);
They had been going astray, but have returned to God through Christ’s suffering (1 Peter 2:25 & Isaiah 53:6, 11-12);
Like Jesus, they were called to suffer, and Jesus is their example and is to be followed in this (1 Peter 2:21 & Isaiah 53:8, 10) The “descendants” (53:8) and “offspring” (53:10) mentioned in Isaiah are probably those who “follow” Jesus.

peace,
Simon

Simon Peter · #**132** 16th March 2012, 10:45 PM

Part Two of Two

Contextual interpretation (1 Peter 2:18-25)

This paragraph sits at almost the centre of the letter. Although several themes run concurrently, the main theme of the letter - prior to and after this paragraph - is the concern for the recipients’ holiness, in the context of suffering. Even the calls for submission - whether to Christ (1:2) or to other authorities (2:13-14, 17) - can be seen in light of the desire for holiness. The suffering Christians are told to hope in Christ, and to look to Him as an example to be followed. (1:3-5, 11, 13, 19-21; 2:4-7)

In our paragraph Peter now specifically addresses household slaves, who probably made up a large portion of the first century church and whose status in the Greco-Roman world made them a particularly vulnerable class. They probably suffered the worst abuse among the believers, and no doubt many of them were reacting in unholy ways. These words in Isaiah 53:3 could probably have been true for many of them:
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Is. 53:3 (NIV)

However, these household slaves were valued members of the church; and it was to these scattered sheep that Peter makes his main address and expounds on his themes of submission and holiness. He tells them to “submit” to their “masters” with “all respect”, even “to those who are harsh” (2:18). He then informs them twice that it is “commendable” if they “endure unjust suffering”! (2:19, 20)

Knowing the difficulty of such a bold request, Peter turns to unfold his rationale, his argument for why they should continue to be respectful while enduring unjust suffering. He tells them “to this you were called” (2:21a), referring not just to suffering, but by contextual implication, suffering in holiness. Suffering on its own has no apparent value and is unlikely to be “commendable before God”. But if they are “conscience toward God” (2:19b), responding submissively and respectfully to suffering, suffering can become an act of holiness; this could then explain how suffering can be “commendable before God” (2:20b).

Peter then elaborates on why they were called to suffer. He said “Christ suffered for them, as an example”, that “you should follow in His steps” (2:21). But how was it that Christ suffered, what were His steps that they should follow? Peter tells them: “He committed no sin”, and “no deceit was found in His mouth” (2:22). “They insulted Him” and “He did not retaliate”, when “He suffered He made no threats” (2:23a). Christ maintained His holiness in suffering. This is an echo of Peter’s words just a few verses earlier:
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." 1 Pet 1:15-16 (NIV)

How did Christ manage to maintain His holiness? Peter goes on: “Instead”, (instead of committing sin) “He entrusted Himself to Him who judges justly” (2:23b). In other words He was “conscience toward God”(2:19). Then Peter continues to ‘follow Christ’s steps’ (2:21) in the progression of His suffering, by telling them that “He himself bore” (took up) “our sins in his body on the cross” (2:24a) in a description of the propitiation of the crucifixion and a probable allusion to Isaiah 53:4
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. Is.53:4 (NIV)

Peter then gives two reasons saying: “so that”, “we may die to sins” and “live for righteousness” (2:24b). Here Peter has just revealed - to the household slaves - the source of power for their ability to follow Christ in holy suffering, to be able to die to their sinful responses to suffering, and to live for holiness.
Peter then follows on from his previous allusion to Is. 53:4 and makes the profound statement: “by his wounds you have been healed” (2:24c), bringing to remembrance Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Is.53:5 (NIV)

The household slaves could draw much solace from these words. Christ, like them, was considered “stricken by God, smitten and afflicted” (Is. 53:4), yet there was great purpose in it. It was His unjust punishment that brought them peace, and through His wounds healing, even healing from their unholy response to suffering.

Peter then says “For” you were “like sheep going astray” (2:25a) continuing to follow through Isaiah 53 by quoting now from Is. 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Is.53:6 (NIV)

Peter continues: “but” he tells them they have “now returned to the Shepherd” and “Guardian of their souls” (2:25b). Using powerful words of assurance, that these scattered sheep, these harassed household slaves are not the first to go astray; and they have returned to their “Shepherd”, through the steps of Christ’s suffering. Whatever may happen to them physically in this life, the “Lord has taken on the iniquity” (and anxiety) “of us all”; and He is the “Guardian of their souls”. Even if they had to follow Christ’s steps all the way to death, their souls are kept safe by their Shepherd and Guardian.

Conclusion

The main theme of the entire letter is concern for the recipients’ holiness, in the context of suffering. The suffering household slaves are instructed to submit to injustice, by being “conscience toward God” and looking to Christ and His steps as an example to be followed. This is the path to holiness even in the midst of suffering. Because of this, Christ’s example of submission to suffering is extremely important, and nowhere in 1 Peter is Christ’s submission to suffering so eloquently told, as in this brief paragraph addressing the household slaves. These verses - echoing Isaiah 53 - give the most sensitive, descriptive and compelling recount of Jesus’ suffering, His innocence, His calm faith, His refusal to retaliate and most importantly, how His steps are an example to be followed.

These verses appear to form the argument, the rationale, the why and how to suffer unjustly. Christ’s suffering and death is their source of power to submit in humility and holiness, in the midst of suffering. The inspiration and encouragement the suffering Christians sorely needed was largely contained in the verses of our pericope. Because of this, I believe these few inspiring verses are most likely the heart of the message (of the whole letter) from Peter; with the two verses of our exegetical study – (2:24-25) Christ’s death for us that we might be holy and restored to our Shepherd, who guards our souls - being the very culmination.

peace,
Simon

JimB · #**133** 17th March 2012, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Simon Peter

Part Two of Two

Contextual interpretation (1 Peter 2:18-25)

This paragraph sits at almost the centre of the letter. Although several themes run concurrently, the main theme of the letter - prior to and after this paragraph - is the concern for the recipients’ holiness, in the context of suffering. Even the calls for submission - whether to Christ (1:2) or to other authorities (2:13-14, 17) - can be seen in light of the desire for holiness. The suffering Christians are told to hope in Christ, and to look to Him as an example to be followed. (1:3-5, 11, 13, 19-21; 2:4-7)

In our paragraph Peter now specifically addresses household slaves, who probably made up a large portion of the first century church and whose status in the Greco-Roman world made them a particularly vulnerable class. They probably suffered the worst abuse among the believers, and no doubt many of them were reacting in unholy ways. These words in Isaiah 53:3 could probably have been true for many of them:
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Is. 53:3 (NIV)

However, these household slaves were valued members of the church; and it was to these scattered sheep that Peter makes his main address and expounds on his themes of submission and holiness. He tells them to “submit” to their “masters” with “all respect”, even “to those who are harsh” (2:18). He then informs them twice that it is “commendable” if they “endure unjust suffering”! (2:19, 20)

Knowing the difficulty of such a bold request, Peter turns to unfold his rationale, his argument for why they should continue to be respectful while enduring unjust suffering. He tells them “to this you were called” (2:21a), referring not just to suffering, but by contextual implication, suffering in holiness. Suffering on its own has no apparent value and is unlikely to be “commendable before God”. But if they are “conscience toward God” (2:19b), responding submissively and respectfully to suffering, suffering can become an act of holiness; this could then explain how suffering can be “commendable before God” (2:20b).

Peter then elaborates on why they were called to suffer. He said “Christ suffered for them, as an example”, that “you should follow in His steps” (2:21). But how was it that Christ suffered, what were His steps that they should follow? Peter tells them: “He committed no sin”, and “no deceit was found in His mouth” (2:22). “They insulted Him” and “He did not retaliate”, when “He suffered He made no threats” (2:23a). Christ maintained His holiness in suffering. This is an echo of Peter’s words just a few verses earlier:
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." 1 Pet 1:15-16 (NIV)

How did Christ manage to maintain His holiness? Peter goes on: “Instead”, (instead of committing sin) “He entrusted Himself to Him who judges justly” (2:23b). In other words He was “conscience toward God”(2:19). Then Peter continues to ‘follow Christ’s steps’ (2:21) in the progression of His suffering, by telling them that “He himself bore” (took up) “our sins in his body on the cross” (2:24a) in a description of the propitiation of the crucifixion and a probable allusion to Isaiah 53:4
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. Is.53:4 (NIV)

Peter then gives two reasons saying: “so that”, “we may die to sins” and “live for righteousness” (2:24b). Here Peter has just revealed - to the household slaves - the source of power for their ability to follow Christ in holy suffering, to be able to die to their sinful responses to suffering, and to live for holiness.
Peter then follows on from his previous allusion to Is. 53:4 and makes the profound statement: “by his wounds you have been healed” (2:24c), bringing to remembrance Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Is.53:5 (NIV)

The household slaves could draw much solace from these words. Christ, like them, was considered “stricken by God, smitten and afflicted” (Is. 53:4), yet there was great purpose in it. It was His unjust punishment that brought them peace, and through His wounds healing, even healing from their unholy response to suffering.

Peter then says “For” you were “like sheep going astray” (2:25a) continuing to follow through Isaiah 53 by quoting now from Is. 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Is.53:6 (NIV)

Peter continues: “but” he tells them they have “now returned to the Shepherd” and “Guardian of their souls” (2:25b). Using powerful words of assurance, that these scattered sheep, these harassed household slaves are not the first to go astray; and they have returned to their “Shepherd”, through the steps of Christ’s suffering. Whatever may happen to them physically in this life, the “Lord has taken on the iniquity” (and anxiety) “of us all”; and He is the “Guardian of their souls”. Even if they had to follow Christ’s steps all the way to death, their souls are kept safe by their Shepherd and Guardian.

Conclusion

The main theme of the entire letter is concern for the recipients’ holiness, in the context of suffering. The suffering household slaves are instructed to submit to injustice, by being “conscience toward God” and looking to Christ and His steps as an example to be followed. This is the path to holiness even in the midst of suffering. Because of this, Christ’s example of submission to suffering is extremely important, and nowhere in 1 Peter is Christ’s submission to suffering so eloquently told, as in this brief paragraph addressing the household slaves. These verses - echoing Isaiah 53 - give the most sensitive, descriptive and compelling recount of Jesus’ suffering, His innocence, His calm faith, His refusal to retaliate and most importantly, how His steps are an example to be followed.

These verses appear to form the argument, the rationale, the why and how to suffer unjustly. Christ’s suffering and death is their source of power to submit in humility and holiness, in the midst of suffering. The inspiration and encouragement the suffering Christians sorely needed was largely contained in the verses of our pericope. Because of this, I believe these few inspiring verses are most likely the heart of the message (of the whole letter) from Peter; with the two verses of our exegetical study – (2:24-25) Christ’s death for us that we might be holy and restored to our Shepherd, who guards our souls - being the very culmination.

peace,
Simon

Although I believe Peter's words were meant for a broader audience than merely to household slave, I do think that this is a very interesting (and honest) view of 1 Peter 2.18-25. Thanx.

JimB · #**134** 17th March 2012, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by TasManOfGod

I think we need to start another thread on the meaning of the word "salvation" Many are not aware that the term includes healing , deliverence and prosperity and even more. Ask any believing Jew what the term means.

Sure, why not. I would like that. Open one up.

　

Yitzchak · #**135** 17th March 2012, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by JimB

Even with this, Renee, it is obvious even to the most casual reader, as well as the most objective, that Peter nowhere has physical healing in mind in 1 Peter 2.24 or, for that matter, the entire context of the verse.
21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Clearly, you can only find physical healing in that passage if you put it there yourself.

~Jim

Since peter does not define the type of healing here , I would say that you are the one inserting a meaning into the verse that is not supported by the rest of scripture.

Matthew 8:16-17.

"When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: 'He Himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses." (Matthew 8:16-17)

Now let's do a little logic here. If Matthew which is inspired scripture , in other words a perfectly reliable source , interprets Isaiah 53:4-5 as including physical healing , then to say Isaiah cannot mean physical healing is to contradict Matthew. Matthew does not necesarially limit the Isaiah passage to mean only physical healing but he does specifically apply it to physical healing. Notice in the Matthew passage , the word sicknesses when Matthew references Isaiah.

So if the Isaiah healing can mean healing and in the specific case of Matthew it does mean healing. Then logically , the burden would be upon the one removing that meaning from the Peter passage.

In other words it is not that we are inserting that meaning into the Peter text. It is that you are removing or excluding that meaning from the text.

Yitzchak · #**136** 17th March 2012, 10:15 AM

By the way , concerning this issue of praying thy will be done. If we are to look at Jesus as our example for our prayer life , then it would seem reasonable to compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges , as the saying goes.

So if we want to know how Jesus deals with sickness and the issue of supernatural healing , then we should then take every example in scripture that pertains to that and look at the examples where Jesus specifically dealt with healing. When one does this , an obvious fact appears which is the fact that there is not a single verse where Jesus responded to sickness by saying it was his will , continue glorifying me by being sick.That's right , zero verses say that.

Obviously if I post them all , my post would be extremely long. But here is one example which is noteworthy in our current discussion. Here Jesus actually links his authority to forgive sins with physical healing. The proof or sign given here is physical healing.

Now we all know that the authority to forgive sins comes from the finished work of the cross and yet here Jesus says he has that authority prior to his going to the cross. Seems to me this is a problem verse for you Dispensationalists. We can find more than one issue in this single verse.

Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mat 9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mat 9:7 And he arose, and departed to his house.

Now notice the first part of this passage. according to this false teaching that is being put forth , the story should have ended there. The man should have walked away still sick and cheerful because Jesus provides spiritual benefits but not physical healing. but once again , the scripture remains consistent and Jesus heals yet again.

In this next passage it says that he healed all. Now this brings up an interesting point. To preach that all may freely come and partake of salvation for their souls but that some are somehow excluded from healing begs the question of how and why some are excluded and on what scriptural basis.

Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

The fact is the basis for this theology which excludes some ( well lets just be honest here , excludes all or most ) from healing is the opinions and bad testimony of some. In other words experience based theology and not scripturaly based.

I challenge you to find a single verse that says that someone sick was brought to Jesus and Jesus responded by refusing to heal them and then said it was not his will because he wanted them sick. No such passage exists.

I say that you can line up a million people and they can testify that God does not offer healing to everyone. I can likewise line up a million unbelievers who say Jesus was just a man. but based upon what ?

Is our doctrine now based upon people's subjective experiences and unbelief ?

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

This whole idea that God does not want to heal some is smoke and mirrors. There is no scriptural support for that position.

The premise has been put forth that we should follow Jesus example of praying not my will but thy will be done. As though Jesus did not know or understand what the will of God was and was confused and forced to speculate about it. And so he was forced to pray that way.

One problem with this view We all know Jesus knew perfectly what the will of God was. He prayed that way because he struggled in his humanity to submit to God's will. Not because he did not know what the will of God was. No where does it even hint that Jesus was somehow out of the loop and confused about what he should do next.

Also this passage is not about Jesus sweating drops of blood because he was wrestling with whether or not it was The Father's will for him to heal someone. No where do we see an example of someone coming for healing and Jesus telling them he has to first pray to the Father for hours and sweat it out as to whether or not he can heal them. To imply that even indirectly is to cheapen and dishonor the struggle that Jesus went through in the garden.

The irony of the whole thing is after sweating it out in prayer Jesus decided to stick with the plan of suffering for us so that we could be healed. There is no double mindedness there. Not only was it the will of God for us to be healed. It came with a great price. Jesus not only stated with words what his will is concerning healing , he backed it up with action.

probinson · #**137** 17th March 2012, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Yitzchak

So if we want to know how Jesus deals with sickness and the issue of supernatural healing , then we should then take every example in scripture that pertains to that and look at the examples where Jesus specifically dealt with healing.

It's funny you should mention this, because in April 2006, I did just that.

If anyone would like to see every single example of Jesus' response to healing, it's right here;

http://www.christianforums.com/t2919779/

JimB · #**138** 17th March 2012, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Yitzchak

Since peter does not define the type of healing here , I would say that you are the one inserting a meaning into the verse that is not supported by the rest of scripture.

******

He doesn't? Well, I'll have to read that again. It seems pretty clear to me what kind of healing he has in mind. Let me highlight the parts that say healing was for our sin:

1 Peter 2. 21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: 22 " Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth"; 23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Now, you can highlight the areas that speak of physical healing (that is, if you can find them without inserting them to fit your theology).

~Jim

probinson · #**139** 17th March 2012, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by FoundInGrace

thats quite a divisive comment, "us" and "them".. arent we supposed to have nothing to do with divisive people

That's a good point. There are people on my side of this debate that see this as "us vs them", and there are people on your side of the debate who have flat out called us their "opponents". This should not be.

Originally Posted by FoundInGrace

i think of you all as my brothers and sisters, we may not agree on the degree of emphasis that should given to healing or the way in which we are part of administering God's grace to each other but we are family.

This is true, and I thank you for the reminder. I do not agree with you doctrinally, but you are my sister in Christ, and should be treated as such.

I have a bit more of a response to your last response to me, but I'll have to come back and post it later, as I have some house cleaning to do today.

JimB · #**140** 17th March 2012, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Yitzchak

Since peter does not define the type of healing here , I would say that you are the one inserting a meaning into the verse that is not supported by the rest of scripture.

Matthew 8:16-17.

Now let's do a little logic here. If Matthew which is inspired scripture , in other words a perfectly reliable source , interprets Isaiah 53:4-5 as including physical healing , then to say Isaiah cannot mean physical healing is to contradict Matthew. Matthew does not necesarially limit the Isaiah passage to mean only physical healing but he does specifically apply it to physical healing. Notice in the Matthew passage , the word sicknesses when Matthew references Isaiah.

So if the Isaiah healing can mean healing and in the specific case of Matthew it does mean healing. Then logically , the burden would be upon the one removing that meaning from the Peter passage.

In other words it is not that we are inserting that meaning into the Peter text. It is that you are removing or excluding that meaning from the text.

I have never denied that Christ heals today (nor has anyone in this forum) . My only objection is that you are trying to insert physical healing into the Atonement, as if God did not heal the sick in the OT, which of course, he did. Christ's Atonement was not needed for divine healing to be a reality--it already was a reality. But redemption from sin was not a reality. It required an Atonement. When Jeremiah prayed for the "healing" of his people in Jer. 8.22, he was not praying for physical healing.

Is there no balm in Gilead?
Is there no physician there?
Why then has the health of the daughter of my people
not been restored? (Jeremiah 8.22)