Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
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thats because you believe that souls are destroyed and annihilated. But because a soul is destroyed doesn't mean it ceases to exist. I drive by my car that has been donated to pick and pull every day. Yes it's destroyed, but no it does not cease to exist. Soul can be destroyed in Hell and still be existing to experience the pain.
Just like bad credit can "destroy" your life. Destroy can be considered as severe damage but still operational.
Just like bad credit can "destroy" your life. Destroy can be considered as severe damage but still operational.
I am a living conscious example of bad credit destroying one's life....lol
__________________
Sir Isaac Newton-
"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the BIBLE than in any profane history...I have a fundamental belief in the BIBLE as the Word of G-D, written by men who were inspired. I study the BIBLE daily." Sir Isaac- founded physics, mechanics and calculus
“Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.”
—JAMES TOUR, NANOSCIENTIST
Just like bad credit can "destroy" your life. Destroy can be considered as severe damage but still operational.
Sounds like you will miss lighting the LAMP!
Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the Spirit: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both Spirit and body in the grave.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Mat 25:10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
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1Ch 25:5 all these were sons of Heman the king’s seer in the words of God, to exalt his power;Hozeh ("seer") also means "to see" or "to perceive," but is also used in reference to musicians. It is also used to describe a counselor or an advisor to a king. The Hebrew does not necessarily indicate that the person is a prophet, but rather an advisor—someone who has wisdom.
It means "one who has insight." Hence, the essential meaning in Greek is "interpreter."
Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the Spirit: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both Spirit and body in the grave.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Mat 25:10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
as we just showed, with two examples, destruction is not the end of things.
here is another approach:
Matthew 25:46
King James Version (KJV)
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.
You are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.
secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked.
thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.
__________________
Sir Isaac Newton-
"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the BIBLE than in any profane history...I have a fundamental belief in the BIBLE as the Word of G-D, written by men who were inspired. I study the BIBLE daily." Sir Isaac- founded physics, mechanics and calculus
“Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.”
—JAMES TOUR, NANOSCIENTIST
as we just showed, with two examples, destruction is not the end of things. Matthew 25:46
46And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol'-as-is From G2849; penal infliction: - 2Th 1:9 Who pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; DARBY WEY GW
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY) 9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,
G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros ol'-eth-ros From ὄλλυμιollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form);ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.
1Co 5:5 To deliverG3860 such an oneG5108 unto SatanG4567 forG1519 the destruction G3639 of theG3588 flesh,
1Ti 6:9 ButG1161 they that willG1014 be richG4147 fallG1706 intoG1519 temptationG3986 andG2532 a snare,G3803 andG2532into manyG4183 foolishG453 andG2532 hurtfulG983 lusts,G1939 whichG3748 drownG1036 menG444 inG1519 destruction G3639 andG2532 perdition.G684
__________________
1Ch 25:5 all these were sons of Heman the king’s seer in the words of God, to exalt his power;Hozeh ("seer") also means "to see" or "to perceive," but is also used in reference to musicians. It is also used to describe a counselor or an advisor to a king. The Hebrew does not necessarily indicate that the person is a prophet, but rather an advisor—someone who has wisdom.
It means "one who has insight." Hence, the essential meaning in Greek is "interpreter."
as we just showed, with two examples, destruction is not the end of things. Matthew 25:46
46And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol'-as-is From G2849; penal infliction: - 2Th 1:9 Who pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; DARBY WEY GW
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY) 9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,
G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros ol'-eth-ros From ὄλλυμιollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form);ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.
English Words used in KJV:
destruction 4
[Total Count: 4]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary. 1Co 5:5 To deliverG3860 such an oneG5108 unto SatanG4567 forG1519 the destruction G3639 of theG3588 flesh,
1Ti 6:9 ButG1161 they that willG1014 be richG4147 fallG1706 intoG1519 temptationG3986 andG2532 a snare,G3803 andG2532into manyG4183 foolishG453 andG2532 hurtfulG983 lusts,G1939 whichG3748 drownG1036 menG444 inG1519 destruction G3639 andG2532 perdition.G684
__________________
1Ch 25:5 all these were sons of Heman the king’s seer in the words of God, to exalt his power;Hozeh ("seer") also means "to see" or "to perceive," but is also used in reference to musicians. It is also used to describe a counselor or an advisor to a king. The Hebrew does not necessarily indicate that the person is a prophet, but rather an advisor—someone who has wisdom.
It means "one who has insight." Hence, the essential meaning in Greek is "interpreter."
46And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol'-as-is From G2849; penal infliction: - 2Th 1:9 Who pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; DARBY WEY GW
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY) 9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,
G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros ol'-eth-ros From ὄλλυμιollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form);ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.
English Words used in KJV:
destruction 4
[Total Count: 4]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary. 1Co 5:5 To deliverG3860 such an oneG5108 unto SatanG4567 forG1519 the destruction G3639 of theG3588 flesh,
1Ti 6:9 ButG1161 they that willG1014 be richG4147 fallG1706 intoG1519 temptationG3986 andG2532 a snare,G3803 andG2532into manyG4183 foolishG453 andG2532 hurtfulG983 lusts,G1939 whichG3748 drownG1036 menG444 inG1519 destruction G3639 andG2532 perdition.G684
none of that defines destruction as being the end of things, just a temporary reorganization.
__________________
Sir Isaac Newton-
"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the BIBLE than in any profane history...I have a fundamental belief in the BIBLE as the Word of G-D, written by men who were inspired. I study the BIBLE daily." Sir Isaac- founded physics, mechanics and calculus
“Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.”
—JAMES TOUR, NANOSCIENTIST
The part where is says they are corpses.
No, if a fire is not quenched, that means it is not put out.
I'm just saying what the bible says, the fire was burning corpses, not conscious people.
No, He spoke repeatedly of Gehenna, which is a valley outside of Jerusalem. He never, not once, said that people will go to hell to be tortured forever.
The 'fire that is not put out' is spiritual, not physical. Certainly the bodies (physical) ceased to exist, but we cannot extend this to spiritual existence which is where the fire will never be put out-it will never be quenched and the person will experience ongoing suffering as consequences for rejecting Christ in this life. As for the 'Gehenna' illustration, several sources (that I don't have with me right now,so I need to come back to this point later) indicate this was NOT in fact what Jesus was referring to (i.e. the local Jerusalem 'garbage dump').
The 'fire that is not put out' is spiritual, not physical. Certainly the bodies (physical) ceased to exist, but we cannot extend this to spiritual existence which is where the fire will never be put out-it will never be quenched and the person will experience ongoing suffering as consequences for rejecting Christ in this life. As for the 'Gehenna' illustration, several sources (that I don't have with me right now,so I need to come back to this point later) indicate this was NOT in fact what Jesus was referring to (i.e. the local Jerusalem 'garbage dump').
And once that is done, he will sit and pull wings off flies.
__________________ Pastor Alpha& Omega Christian Gnostic Church(retired)
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Gnosis(direct experiential knowledge of God) It's not an "oh cool I'm a god" type thing. It's a calling up everybody you have ever known since childhood and apologizing for being a JERK type thing.~ Bro. Spark
Find Sophia's match for you at Gnosticmingle.com<-Not a real link "Duh"
The 'fire that is not put out' is spiritual, not physical. Certainly the bodies (physical) ceased to exist, but we cannot extend this to spiritual existence which is where the fire will never be put out-it will never be quenched and the person will experience ongoing suffering as consequences for rejecting Christ in this life. As for the 'Gehenna' illustration, several sources (that I don't have with me right now,so I need to come back to this point later) indicate this was NOT in fact what Jesus was referring to (i.e. the local Jerusalem 'garbage dump').
Well, you just moved the goalposts.
You said:
Wrong. The verse states it quite clearly. "their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched". What part of that suggests they are not conscious of what is happening?
And I answered clearly, I said "the part that says they are corpses," They are dead. Corpses are not conscious of what is happening. What part of being a corpse suggests that the corpse is conscious of what is happening? Remember that you are the one who suggested that Isaiah 66:24 speaks of hell. I'm pointing out that in Isaiah 66 the punished people are dead. This is not the traditional Hell of dead people living in hell being tortured.
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