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  #1  
Old 9th March 2012, 06:36 AM
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Abraham and Sarah laughed

Both laughed Gen 17:17 and 18:12. Why was Sarah's laughter a problem compared to Abraham's?
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  #2  
Old 9th March 2012, 07:52 AM
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Love no problem.... just an opportunity to help sarah believe....

Originally Posted by tturt View Post
Both laughed Gen 17:17 and 18:12. Why was Sarah's laughter a problem compared to Abraham's?
i don't think GOD had a problem with sarah laughing... she did the same thing abraham did... laugh and wonder how it could happen... the only difference is that when GOD told abraham the first time in gen. 17.... abraham asked GOD a question.... and GOD answered him in a way that helped abraham believe what GOD said....

this time sarah is in the tent listening... she isn't a part of the conversation... so she has no one to ask but herself.... but GOD WHO loves her as much as HE loves abraham wants to help her believe.... just like HE helped abraham believe....

so the verbal exchange was slightly different in gen 17 and gen 18.... but GOD'S goal both times was to help them both believe..... and GOD rebuked neither of them.... even when sarah was afraid to confess that she had laughed.... even still there was no rebuke for her.... just an honest exchange of words.... if you see the whole conversation in gen 17 and gen 18.... it really looks to me like GOD helping them believe so that they could receive..... and being lovingly honest.... but without rebuke....

sarah did nothing wrong.... and in the end they both believed and received....

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Old 9th March 2012, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tturt View Post
Both laughed Gen 17:17 and 18:12. Why was Sarah's laughter a problem compared to Abraham's?
I like how several commentaries put it: Abraham laughed to rejoice, in joy; Sarah laughed in doubt.

Abraham laughed, then openly conversed with God how this should come about. His laughter could have initially been provoked by surprised shock. But a tickling joy followed, though maybe not understanding, for at that point he asks if Ishmael can play a role. But God assures him that although He will bless Ishmael, it is through Isaac that the Covenant shall be established. As HSWOF says, God then took him by the hand and led him to greater faith.

Sarah, on the other hand, hid and in her laughter came close to mocking: "After I'm old this happens??" So even in her faith that God could do this, she doubts. If her laughter were also joy, then she would not have been afraid when the Lord called her on it (v15), which she further exacerbated with a lie: "I did not laugh." And as HSWOF says, God was still able to lead her out of this doubt, into a greater faith, for we see her testimony later in scipture (Heb 11:11).
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Old 9th March 2012, 08:20 PM
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Love no rebuke for sarah or abraham from GOD....

Originally Posted by ABlessedMan View Post
I like how several commentaries put it: Abraham laughed to rejoice, in joy; Sarah laughed in doubt.

Abraham laughed, then openly conversed with God how this should come about. His laughter could have initially been provoked by surprised shock. But a tickling joy followed, though maybe not understanding, for at that point he asks if Ishmael can play a role. But God assures him that although He will bless Ishmael, it is through Isaac that the Covenant shall be established. As HSWOF says, God then took him by the hand and led him to greater faith.

Sarah, on the other hand, hid and in her laughter came close to mocking: "After I'm old this happens??" So even in her faith that God could do this, she doubts. If her laughter were also joy, then she would not have been afraid when the Lord called her on it (v15), which she further exacerbated with a lie: "I did not laugh." And as HSWOF says, God was still able to lead her out of this doubt, into a greater faith, for we see her testimony later in scipture (Heb 11:11).
are you sure about sarah doing something wrong?.... i read all of chapter 15 to the end of 18....

and i saw abraham...
1. laugh and then...
2. spoke his doubts to himself and then....
3. asked GOD a question about ishmael who abraham KNEW didn't come from sarah....
4. and then GOD spoke and then....
5. abraham choose to believe....

and i saw sarah.....
1. laugh and then....
2 speak her doubts to herself and then....
3. GOD ask her a question and....
4. she was afraid (she didn't realize HE heard) and lied about laughing...
5. and then GOD spoke...
6. and she gave birth to isaac by that time a year later.... so she would have conceived very quickly....

i know the commentaries put a bad spin on sarah.... but they don't understand how GOD draws faith out of HIS people so that THEY can BELLIEVE and RECEIVE the full NOW manifestation...

i truly didn't see a rebuke of any kind come from GOD to sarah.... i only saw HIM say things that would help her believe.... even when HE called her on the lying..... it was simple and kind.... no rebuke.... HE wasn't there to rebuke this 89 year old sarah and 99 year old abraham....

ADDITIONAL INFO:
what i meant was that when sarah laughed she didn't do anything any worse than abraham.... and there is no scripture to say that her laughter was bad and abraham's laughter was NOT bad....

the commentaries maybe want to say sarah's laughter was bad and abraham's was NOT bad.... but from reading gen 15-18 i don't see GOD saying that....

wof hugs....

ps.
it's not like mary mother of JESUS vs zacharia father of john the baptst... and...
cain's offering vs abel's offering....
in both of those situations the 4 people appeared to do/say the same thing.... but 2 got a rebuke or punishment from GOD and 2 got a commendation from GOD...

with sarah and abraham GOD makes no distinction.... only commentaries try to make sarah's laughter wrong and abraham's laughter ok/not wrong/not like sarah's.....

pss.
gen 17:17 abraham fell on his face and laughed and said in his heart: shall a child be born to a man 100 years old. and shall sarah who is 90 years old bear a child?....
gen 18:12 sarah laughed within herself saying: after i have grown old shall i have pleasure, my lord being old also?...

Last edited by HolySpiritWOF2; 10th March 2012 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 9th March 2012, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by HolySpiritWOF2 View Post
are you sure about sarah doing something wrong?.... i read all of chapter 15 to the end of 18....

and i saw abraham...
1. laugh and then...
2. spoke his doubts to himself and then....
3. asked GOD a question about ishmael who abraham KNEW didn't come from sarah....
4. and then GOD spoke and then....
5. abraham choose to believe....

and i saw sarah.....
1. laugh and then....
2 speak her doubts to herself and then....
3. GOD ask her a question and....
4. she was afraid (she didn't realize HE heard) and lied about laughing...
5. and then GOD spoke...
6. and she gave birth to isaac by that time a year later.... so she would have conceived very quickly....

i know the commentaries put a bad spin on sarah.... but they don't understand how GOD draws faith out of HIS people so that THEY can BELLIEVE and RECEIVE the full NOW manifestation...
So #4, lying directly to God is not bad??

But don't disparage the commentaries completely, there is still good understanding and cross references in them that is wonderfully enlightening. The problem with the old orthodoxy is that they seem to miss the power of the authority that God gave us. They took a wrong turn somewhere going about 80mph and then threw the car into reverse and dropped their transmission. But the car still has some good parts. It just doesn't run very fast.

Originally Posted by HolySpiritWOF2 View Post
i truly didn't see a rebuke of any kind come from GOD to sarah.... i only saw HIM say things that would help her believe.... even when HE called her on the lying..... it was simple and kind.... no rebuke.... HE wasn't there to rebuke this 89 year old sarah and 99 year old abraham....
Well, I don't think I said she was rebuked. She was corrected. And she did act in doubt. Personally I don't think I want to tell God that I didn't do something and Him offer reproof and tell me point blank "Yes, you did." That's an argument that I'm likely not going to win.

But you are right, He took her by the hand and led her to higher faith. Didn't disqualify her but went on with His plan and promise of a Covenant between Him and Abraham's seed. And certainly part of this is because she is covered by her husband, Abraham, who remained in faith. As here...
1 Peter 3:5-6a
For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord.
And also shown in Hebrew 11:11, where her faith is mentioned WITHIN the account and context of Abraham from v8 thru 12. For we remember that she is the mother of the seed, of all those who receive the promise in the New Covenant (Gal 4:23b, 26, 31). Her faith delivered us to be free (not under the law).
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Old 10th March 2012, 04:28 PM
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Love lots of lying in that part of the family tree....

Originally Posted by ABlessedMan View Post
So #4, lying directly to God is not bad??
well...... ok.... if you put it THAT way..... lying to GOD is for sure bad.....

but that kinda ran in the family..... abraham lied to pharoah (told him sarah was his sister and not his wife).... TWICE genesis 12 and genesis 20....
and told sarah that if she loved him she would lie for him and say the same thing..... so pharoah wouldn't kill him and take sarah for himself.....

and then sarah lied to GOD about laughing....

and then isaac lied to pharoah and said rebecah was NOT his wife too.... for the same reason as his father abraham did....
and asked rebecah to join him in that lie....

and jacob lied to his father isaac about being esau.....
because his mother rebecah told him to lie....

and laban lied to jacob about marriage and wages etc....
and rebecah lied to laban about having stolen his household gods....
and joseph's brothers lied about joseph being killed by a lion.... etc.... etc....

so there was a lot of lying in that part of the family tree.... and it always seems to be out of fear.... and it seems to maybe have started with abraham.... but maybe not.....

not sure why their side of the family tree did a lot of lying.... that would make a good study maybe..... maybe not.... guess we don't really need to learn about lying....

but what i meant was that when sarah laughed she didn't do anything any worse than abraham.... and there is no scripture to say that her laughter was bad and abraham's laughter was NOT bad.... that was what i was meaning......

my fault for not articulating clearly..... the commentaries maybe want to say sarah's laughter was bad and abraham's was NOT bad.... but from reading gen 15-18 i don't see GOD saying that.... that was what i meant to say....

wof hugs....

ps.
it's not like mary mother of JESUS vs zacharia father of john the baptst... and...
cain's offering vs abel's offering....
in both of those situations the 4 people appeared to do/say the same thing.... but 2 got a rebuke or punishment from GOD and 2 got a commendation from GOD...

with sarah and abraham GOD makes no distinction.... only commentaries try to make sarah's laughter wrong and abraham's laughter ok/not wrong/not like sarah's.....

pss.
gen 17:17 abraham fell on his face and laughed and said in his heart: shall a child be born to a man 100 years old. and shall sarah who is 90 years old bear a child?....
gen 18:12 sarah laughed within herself saying: after i have grown old shall i have pleasure, my lord being old also?...

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Old 10th March 2012, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by HolySpiritWOF2 View Post
.... guess we don't really need to learn about lying....
You took a long road to get here. But yes, I agree here.

Originally Posted by HolySpiritWOF2 View Post
but what i meant was that when sarah laughed she didn't do anything any worse than abraham.... and there is no scripture to say that her laughter was bad and abraham's laughter was NOT bad.... that was what i was meaning......
If the Bible had to add an extra line or paragraph to explain the obvious then it's length would be multiplied by 10. Both laughed. Abraham got back on track immediately and tried to figure out how God would do this: faith. Sarah on the other hand, laughed and did not get back on track. And when God said, "Sarah? You comin'" She stutter stepped and said "I didn't lie." God had to pat her on the back, tell her "You telling me that I don't know what a lie is? You lied. Now, let's get back on the faith track, because you are mother to all who will be free in the New Covenant. And THEN she got back on the faith track.

The laughter itself is not the issue; what happens after is. And it points to the root for the laughter. Abraham's was a surprised shock. Sarah's was a mocking. Abraham's was like: Huh? You're going to use these old bodies to produce a son?? Ha! Cool! Let's go!! Sarah's was: Huh? Now that I'm old you want to use me?? Ha! ... What, Lord? No I didn't laugh. Not me. ...

Originally Posted by HolySpiritWOF2 View Post
my fault for not articulating clearly..... the commentaries maybe want to say sarah's laughter was bad and abraham's was NOT bad.... but from reading gen 15-18 i don't see GOD saying that.... that was what i meant to say....

wof hugs....
Commentaries have their leanings, and for the most part they are more orthodox. After all, the bible is inspired of God, the commentaries are written by men.

The problem here, and the only reason I hold it like a pit bull, is that God requires perfection. If it wasn't for Jesus we would not qualify. But even in Jesus' blood we need to be careful about casually dismissing our imperfections as "ok with God." They are not. We are under Jesus blood for forgiveness, but we still need to strive toward righteousness. We are being sanctified and that is a move toward perfection in Christ. We need to recognize our "allowances" and not say: well that's good enough, isn't it? God will understand. While He is all about Grace, He is all about perfection as well. Strive for it in all we do, realizing that it is Jesus' blood that covers. Like Paul says in Romans 6, we make no place for sin even though we are under Grace.
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Old 10th March 2012, 07:04 PM
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Love sarah was just as shocked as abraham....

Originally Posted by ABlessedMan View Post
You took a long road to get here. But yes, I agree here.

Both laughed. Abraham got back on track immediately and tried to figure out how God would do this: faith. Sarah on the other hand, laughed and did not get back on track. And when God said, "Sarah? .....

you are mother to all who will be free in the New Covenant. And THEN she got back on the faith track.

The laughter itself is not the issue; what happens after is. And it points to the root for the laughter. Abraham's was a surprised shock. Sarah's was a mocking.

But even in Jesus' blood we need to be careful about casually dismissing our imperfections as "ok with God." They are not.

We need to recognize our "allowances" and not say: well that's good enough, isn't it?
i agree with your blue statements 200% and disagree with the red... i don't see the red stuff in scripture...

1. the encounter with abraham in gen 17 was short and by the end of it he was on track.... the encounter with sarah in gen 18 was short and by the time it was finished she was on track... and GOD didn't rebuke sarah for mocking... from the short exchange in gen 18.... i think sarah was just as shocked as abraham and laughed for the same reason as abraham.... i also believe that her words to herself show that she was trying to figure out how this could be also.... if GOD doesn't say she mocked then why would we.... why couldn't her laughter have been the same as abraham's?.... shock?....

2. and another point... sarah called this a pleasure to bear a child.... a 90 year old woman still thought of bearing a child as a pleasure.... i believe those words CLEARLY indicate that she was NOT mocking.... i believe that her heart still DEEPLY longed for a child.... and therefore was everybit as eager (IF not MORE eager***) as abraham to figure out how this could happen with 2 super old people.... i see shock and trying to figure out how....just like abraham.... i don't see mocking anywhere in scripture....

3. ***sarah was MORE eager than abraham to have a child because she NEVER had one... abraham already had ishmael by hagar.... this would also make it NOT TRUE that she would mock what the LORD said.... a woman who longs for a child as long as sarah would GRASP AT STRAWS to have a child.... not mock.... she would be wondering how this could be.... and deeply wish/want/hope it to be true.... even the LORD'S words indicate this.... Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?..... she was looking for surety.... not mocking...

ps.
it's not like mary mother of JESUS vs zacharia father of john the baptst... and...
cain's offering vs abel's offering....
in both of those situations the 4 people appeared to do/say the same thing.... but 2 got a rebuke or punishment from GOD and 2 got a commendation from GOD...



pss.
gen 17:17 abraham fell on his face and laughed and said in his heart: shall a child be born to a man 100 years old. and shall sarah who is 90 years old bear a child?....
gen 18:12 sarah laughed within herself saying: after i have grown old shall i have pleasure, my lord being old also?...

HERE IS THE LONGER VERSION see if you can't see what i am saying... i truly don't see GOD or anyone saying sarah was mocking.... she laughed inside herself... from shock.... and tried to figure out how this could be with 2 SUPER OLD people....

Genesis 17:15-22

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16 And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”
17 Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”
19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.” 22 Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Genesis 18:9-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?”
So he said, “Here, in the tent.”
10 And He said, “I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son.”
(Sarah was listening in the tent door which was behind him.) 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age; and Sarah had passed the age of childbearing.[a] 12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”
13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.”
15 But Sarah denied it, saying, “I did not laugh,” for she was afraid.
And He said, “No, but you did laugh!”
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Old 12th March 2012, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HolySpiritWOF2 View Post
3. ***sarah was MORE eager than abraham to have a child because she NEVER had one... abraham already had ishmael by hagar.... this would also make it NOT TRUE that she would mock what the LORD said.... a woman who longs for a child as long as sarah would GRASP AT STRAWS to have a child.... not mock.... she would be wondering how this could be.... and deeply wish/want/hope it to be true.... even the LORD'S words indicate this.... Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?..... she was looking for surety.... not mocking...
Well, we've reached the point fairly quickly where it's "yes it is" "no it isn't" "yes it is" "no it isn't!" Ha ha.

The points I would like to make is that you are philosophising sarah's eagerness because she said 'pleasure?' Further, Sarah was not looking for surity, the Lord was specifying surity. You are giving me Sarah's intent by looking at the Lord's words: Sarah's words did not include that.

We have the following record in scripture:

(1) Sarah's words: “After I have grown old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”

(2) God's words: “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?"

Now, either (a) God lied (in 2) or (b) God wrote it down wrong (in 1). Or (c) scripture is the inspired Word of God and we can learn from what is happening and what is said.

There are a few neat little clues to consider. Verse 9, God asks Abraham: “Where is Sarah your wife?” Doesn't He know? God certainly knows all. So why does He ask such a question? It is for Abraham and Sarah's benefit.

Next to consider: verse 12 Sarah laughs and makes her comment (#1 above). But in verse 13 the Lord speaks to Abraham about her comment, not Sarah. Why? Two thing: God isn't openly rebuking her, but turing the statement to belief (surity) and leading her to faith; and because Abraham is her husband and covers her. His faith covers the household. His faith will cover her regret.

Another is Sarah's words: "I [am] old ... my lord [Abraham is] old also." God's words: "...since I [Sarah] am old." Where is Abraham in God's reiteration?? He isn't there because he was not the one who doubted. Sarah doubted about both of them; Abraham rose to faith. (Sarah will follow...)

Finally, God speaks directly to Sarah only after she lies. And only to correct the lie. He never openly rebukes her, but rather, in essence, takes her by the hand to lead her to higher faith...for she will be the mother of the seed (Gal 4:23+).

When we look at Sarah's words, we see the doubt. When we look at God's view of the words, we see the surity of what she denied; but she was willing to be lifted "back on track." Because it's going to happen. Yes it will.
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Old 12th March 2012, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ABlessedMan View Post
I like how several commentaries put it: Abraham laughed to rejoice, in joy; Sarah laughed in doubt.

Abraham laughed, then openly conversed with God how this should come about. His laughter could have initially been provoked by surprised shock. But a tickling joy followed, though maybe not understanding, for at that point he asks if Ishmael can play a role. But God assures him that although He will bless Ishmael, it is through Isaac that the Covenant shall be established. As HSWOF says, God then took him by the hand and led him to greater faith.

Sarah, on the other hand, hid and in her laughter came close to mocking: "After I'm old this happens??" So even in her faith that God could do this, she doubts. If her laughter were also joy, then she would not have been afraid when the Lord called her on it (v15), which she further exacerbated with a lie: "I did not laugh." And as HSWOF says, God was still able to lead her out of this doubt, into a greater faith, for we see her testimony later in scipture (Heb 11:11).

Good explanation!
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