Tongues of men and angels

InSpiritInTruth · #1 1st March 2012, 05:14 PM

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:1;
“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. What was Paul talking about when he said he spoke both with the tongues of men and of angels, and what is the difference? I believe the difference is that the tongue of man is carnal, while the tongues of angels are that which is spiritual.
Just as Paul said to the early converts who were still yet living in the flesh; 1 Corinthians 3:1
“And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.” Just as it was the babes in Christ that could only receive the milk of the gospel, but the meat of the gospel was reserved for the mature in Spirit.
It is written in 1 Corinthians 2:14; “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” So to a carnally minded man the spiritual things of God could not be received, nor could they be understood because it was like a foreign tongue to him.
That is also why Paul often said he spoke as a man as seen in Romans 3:5;
“But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man).” Paul also said he spoke after the manner of men here in Galatians 3:15; “Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.”
We are told in 1 Corinthians 14:2; “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” Just as John the Baptist said John 3:31-32; “He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.”
And again we see no man can receive His testimony because it is spoken by the Spirit of God, and is therefore spiritually discerned. But those who are born from above speak the Word of God in a mystery by the Spirit of God. Paul said in Corinthians 2:7; “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the world for our glory:”
Jesus told his disciples in Luke 8:10; “And He said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; but to others in parables, that `seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.” So we see the language barrier is not by the actual hearing of the Word with the outward ear, but by being able to receive the Word by way of spiritual knowledge and understanding, which can only be obtained through the mind of the Spirit. For it is written in Romans 8:27; “And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Just as those who are born of God, or born from above, are no longer carnal but spiritually minded. And thereby being born again of the Holy Spirit from above, we then are also made heirs of salvation, being the very sons of the Living God. Just as the angels from above are ministering spirits sent forth to minister unto them, as they also ministered unto Jesus. Hebrews 1:14; “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation?”
Jesus said in John 3:6; “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” And if we are born again from above, then we are also born again of the Holy Spirit of God, and are made to speak with new tongues. Mark 16:17; “And these signs shall follow them that believe: In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;”
No longer do we speak with the tongues of men that minister unto death, but rather we speak with the tongues of Angels that minister unto Life and peace.

Fireinfolding · #2 1st March 2012, 05:59 PM

Yah he finally shows up. Gutting a deer all day bro?

Im so not sure on this one bro because I dont know what tongues are myself. As I have confessed before I dont have any such gifts so I am out of the loop on this one.

In otherwords, I dont think I could discern between them, there does seem to be two, unless I am missing something.

Paul spake in tongues

1Cr 14:1 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1Cr 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

And he says...

1Cr 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

1Cr 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I only know that he that prophesieth is supposedly greater and to be truthful I am not even convinced I know what that means

I can only go by what I read because its not my experience, for example here...

Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

But then I noticed these tongues are those where each heard them in their own language

Acts 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

And then it speaks of what no man understands as well, so I dont know

It appears tongues of men (here) even though it come by the Holy Ghost because every man heard them speak in his own language, whereas Jesus when sent to the house of Israel was sent not to those of a language hard to understand, and the as Paul said...

1Cr 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

So one appears to be speech in other mens languages and the other not so plain, no man understandeth him because he speaketh mysteries.

This is so not my topic because I cant tell

Im just putting myself out there truthfully, if I havent the gift I just havent the gift, nor do I understand the gifts.

Im giftless here lol

Kool topic though I need to learn about it but I cant say much

God bless you brother

x141 · #3 1st March 2012, 06:42 PM

[quote=InSpiritInTruth;59936375]
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:1;
“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. What was Paul talking about when he said he spoke both with the tongues of men and of angels, and what is the difference? I believe the difference is that the tongue of man is carnal, while the tongues of angels are that which is spiritual.
Just as Paul said to the early converts who were still yet living in the flesh; 1 Corinthians 3:1
“And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.” Just as it was the babes in Christ that could only receive the milk of the gospel, but the meat of the gospel was reserved for the mature in Spirit.
It is written in 1 Corinthians 2:14; “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” So to a carnally minded man the spiritual things of God could not be received, nor could they be understood because it was like a foreign tongue to him.
That is also why Paul often said he spoke as a man as seen in Romans 3:5;
“But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man).” Paul also said he spoke after the manner of men here in Galatians 3:15; “Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.”
We are told in 1 Corinthians 14:2; “For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.” Just as John the Baptist said John 3:31-32; “He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.”
And again we see no man can receive His testimony because it is spoken by the Spirit of God, and is therefore spiritually discerned. But those who are born from above speak the Word of God in a mystery by the Spirit of God. Paul said in Corinthians 2:7; “But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the world for our glory:”
Jesus told his disciples in Luke 8:10; “And He said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; but to others in parables, that `seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.” So we see the language barrier is not by the actual hearing of the Word with the outward ear, but by being able to receive the Word by way of spiritual knowledge and understanding, which can only be obtained through the mind of the Spirit. For it is written in Romans 8:27; “And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Just as those who are born of God, or born from above, are no longer carnal but spiritually minded. And thereby being born again of the Holy Spirit from above, we then are also made heirs of salvation, being the very sons of the Living God. Just as the angels from above are ministering spirits sent forth to minister unto them, as they also ministered unto Jesus. Hebrews 1:14; “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation?”
Jesus said in John 3:6; “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” And if we are born again from above, then we are also born again of the Holy Spirit of God, and are made to speak with new tongues. Mark 16:17; “And these signs shall follow them that believe: In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;”
No longer do we speak with the tongues of men that minister unto death, but rather we speak with the tongues of Angels that minister unto Life and peace.

[/quote

Joh 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

I speak and do what I hear my Father say and do, and what he teaches me ...

InSpiritInTruth · #4 1st March 2012, 06:50 PM

It ain't huntin season Sis. I was just wrestlin with removing a stump for a good part of the day; And it put up a good fight too, but in the end I prevailed.

Tongues are languages spoken, which can be either literal like chinese, or Russian, or Italian. Or they can even be earthly or heavenly, as in carnal tongues, or spiritual tongues.

What happened at Pentecost plainly speaks of the different tongues of men, or common langauges that were spoken by the different peoples at the time. These men were not speaking gibberish that no one could understand, but the different tongues of the different peoples that they were going to be sent to, in order to preach the gospel.

Acts 2:8-11

King James Version (KJV)

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The Holy Spirit gave them the understanding to speak those different languages, but they were still a common language spoken in each region, or nationality by men. Just as I believe Paul spoke many different languages, of the different peoples and nationalities to whom he was sent.

That is not to say that there is not a common heavenly language, or langauges, but what good would they be to the people on earth if no one understood them but the angels, and God? If it was not given for the edification of someone on earth, then why even speak it in the first place?

What I was showing was the difference between the carnal tongue which speaks of the things of the earth, and the spiritual tongue which speaks and testifies of the things from above.

That is what I believe Paul was talking about when he said he spoke in both the tongues of men(earthly understanding) and the tongues of angels(heavenly understanding.)

x141 · #5 1st March 2012, 06:56 PM

Maybe you were just having a moment (his face is hid) .... but; Gift's are what Abraham sends his servants away with. Unless you are fully Son you can not fully serve. Either you are complete in him or you are not. : )

Fireinfolding · #6 1st March 2012, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth

It ain't huntin season Sis. I was just wrestlin with removing a stump for a good part of the day; And it put up a good fight too, but in the end I prevailed.

Tongues are languages spoken, which can be either literal like chinese, or Russian, or Italian. Or they can even be earthly or heavenly, as in carnal tongues, or spiritual tongues.

What happened at Pentecost plainly speaks of the different tongues of men, or common langauges that were spoken by the different peoples at the time. These men were not speaking gibberish that no one could understand, but the different tongues of the different peoples that they were going to be sent to, in order to preach the gospel.

Acts 2:8-11

King James Version (KJV)

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The Holy Spirit gave them the understanding to speak those different languages, but they were still a common language spoken in each region, or nationality by men. Just as I believe Paul spoke many different languages, of the different peoples and nationalities to whom he was sent.

That is not to say that there is not a common heavenly language, or langauges, but what good would they be to the people on earth if no one understood them but the angels, and God? If it was not given for the edification of someone on earth, then why even speak it in the first place?

What I was showing was the difference between the carnal tongue which speaks of the things of the earth, and the spiritual tongue which speaks and testifies of the things from above.

That is what I believe Paul was talking about when he said he spoke in both the tongues of men(earthly understanding) and the tongues of angels(heavenly understanding.)

I so dont know you guys hunting seasons sorry

Yeah bro I think your right because both seem given of the Holy Ghost, the utterance to speak to men the wonderful works of God, if they hadnt such a gift the gospel could not have been preached to men of other languages thats for sure. Then it speaks of praying in the Spirit but says, "my understanding is unfruitful" which indicates whatever language they are speaking its not understood by the one speaking it. Then elsewhere speaking mysteries with ones tongue is not speaking unto men but God, however, can speak unto men if there be an interpreter present. And its there (where) he who is greater which prophesies is met with the exception to the one which can interpret. So a few things going on there, and I couldnt link speaking unto another in a "spiritual sense" with an unknown tongue I suppose, I think I made a first effort at it, because that would make sense to me, I just ran into some roadblocks doing it. Firstly because he uttereth mysteries, no man understand him, which would make sense that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit. But its that the Holy Ghost was the first distributor (indicating the times) and the languages heard were of men (all in their own langauge). But then again theres the speaking in tongues and praying that ye might interepret, or speaking not unto men, or that ones own understanding is unfruitful thing there that throws me.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

That casting out demons thing there also is sorta cool too because of these guys...

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

Acts 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Acts 19:17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

His name failing them in their attempts to cast out devils (by invoking his name) actually magnified the Lord

But we see all these signs accompany them, the Lord confirming them in all things. And the Lords name failing others attempts to invoke his name of the Jews there.

I gotta study this thing more, because I sure havent spoke in any tongue or cast any devils out of anyone, or laid my hands on anyone and healed them, so I could be the sign of an unbeliever too in those sort of things. Though I never tried really...

Okay, now I gottta try it out

Anyone close by my house here? That I might drive over and put my hands on you and see if Ive got what it takes here or what?

Watch out evil spirits here I come

Heh heh, kidding wit cha

God bless you brother, glad you prevailed over that stump, now you havent (God provided) free outdoor furniture lol

JRSut1000 · #7 1st March 2012, 07:40 PM

A lot of times people read phrases in the Bible as completely literal, whereas oftentimes they forget that the Bible is for the most part a 'Jewish' book. Could it very well be that 'tongues of men and angels' is a way of saying, eloquent speech? There are a LOT of idioms used in Jewish/Hebrew literature and history that is not meant to be taken literally. Just like the English language has loads of idioms, so do other languages and the languages of the Bible are no exception.

Fireinfolding · #8 1st March 2012, 07:46 PM

At this point (for me) could very well be "just about" anything

Who hasnt the... "it could very well be's"?

Being certain of what it is is what I am looking for, thats always on Gods timetable with me, because I cant know anything for sure till He convinces me.

So I too say, "it could very well be" UNTIL I know, which I dont

JRSut1000 · #9 1st March 2012, 07:51 PM

Sure I understand. I am still searching the issue as well.

So far I am certain that the gift of languages still exists today (as in interpretation of known languages) but beyond that I'm not sure and slightly skeptical. I know certain denominations over-use the phrase 'with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues' and I just dont see that as Scriptural at all! Although this was the initial evidence in the NT, it was because that city was full of people from many nations because it was God's holy day of Shavuot. He used that day (signifying the giving of the Torah) to show the giving out of His Spirit on the apostles and the gospel of Jesus Christ. But I have no idea how people jumped from that and made a whole doctrine out of it.

Fireinfolding · #10 1st March 2012, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by JRSut1000

Sure I understand. I am still searching the issue as well. So far I am certain that the gift of languages still exists today (as in interpretation of known languages) but beyond that I'm not sure and slightly skeptical. I know certain denominations over-use the phrase 'with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues' and I just dont see that as Scriptural at all! Although this was the initial evidence in the NT, it was because that city was full of people from many nations because it was God's holy day of Shavuot. He used that day (signifying the giving of the Torah) to show the giving out of His Spirit on the apostles and the gospel of Jesus Christ. But I have no idea how people jumped from that and made a whole doctrine out of it.

I am still searching it as well (though I should apply myself a bit more) And me neither! lol

It seems the gospel was already taken to other languages, so believers were bearing fruit all over the world from there. I guess I couldnt see why that gift would still be needed. There was no ending of the languages in the earth and they spake one (in the tongues of men). but through the one, spake many languages, so I wonder. There would be exceptions ofcourse, so who am I to say?

Now I dont know what all that tongues stuff I have seen on display out there is about, I just keep what I think to myself. All I know is that its not the least edifying to me, so I why would I be there? It wouldnt make sense for me to hang out in places like that

To each their own yanno?

There never seems to be an interpreter present to make sense of it, then again that might not be true in every case, so I'd hate to paint anything with a broad brush.

Who am I? I boast no great gift here so what can I know? I could be sitting out in the dark on these things myself, I sure dont feel included