Am I correct in saying that John Wimber's 3rd wave theology meant he believed we are all Baptised in the Spirit the moment we are born again and the gifts of the Spirit were available to us all.
Is it also true he did not believe that a DEFINITE, SUBSEQUENT Baptism in the Spirit (with tongues) was neccesary to move in the gifts of the Spirit ???
Please confirm.
Thanks.
__________________ Bless....
Last edited by mrhappy3; 1st March 2012 at 04:56 PM.
Wimber strongly espoused Kingdom theology, and this approach to the charismatic differed from many of his peers and predecessors. Wimber's embrace of this new approach led a friend, C. Peter Wagner, to coin the phrase, "The Third Wave of the Holy Spirit" to describe the concept he taught (and to avoid some current labels with their negative connotations). The Third Wave differed from classic Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement, foremost, in their approach to speaking in tongues. Whereas the previous groups had emphasized the gift of tongues as the only evidence for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Wimber and those he influenced emphasized that this was just one of the many spiritual gifts taught in the Bible. This teaching revolutionized what was a major theological stumbling block to some mainstream Evangelicals, the demonstration of "signs and wonders" expressed in the present-day world in a form alleged to be alike to those of the days of the First Century Apostles
John Wimber tentatively held to a modified evangelical view on baptism of the Holy Spirit that says it happens at conversion but that there is an experiential aspect (e.g. speaking in tongues) that may not be manifested or released until a later date. Wimber says:
'...I want you to keep in mind that I'm still in the process of changing, I'm going to share with you my viewpoint today, I may change it in 2 weeks or in 2 years, I don't know... I'm just not sure I've yet fully worked out a scenario that I can live with long term. But here are my best thoughts on the subject... From time to time we will have a valid experience with an invalid label. At this time my perception is that that is what has occurred with the issue of the baptism of the Holy Spirit... At this point in time I have come full circle from an evangelical theology of filling of the Spirit, through an experience and a theology that embraced what we would call classic Pentecostal... now I've come back to a place where I think I started theologically, but I've added a dimension of experience.'[7]
'My perception is that every born-again Christian can manifest any gift that he wants to, because with the coming of the Holy Spirit you have the Source of all gifts
Whether Wimber believed it or not, I do. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit by Jesus the Savior when we believe in Him as Lord and Savior. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
Grace 'n Peace
Danny
__________________ Theology never comforted anyone hungry, or poor, or hurting.
Whether Wimber believed it or not, I do. We are baptized with the Holy Spirit by Jesus the Savior when we believe in Him as Lord and Savior. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
Grace 'n Peace
Danny
Yep. Me too.
BTW, the Vineyard (p)refers to itself as "Empowered Evangelicals" (even "Post-Charismatic," just as Charismatics are post-Pentecostal), but never as "Third Wave." Third Wave was a term used by Wagner back in the 80's, but actually it is a term first coined by Alvin Toffler to identify the "information age" as it evolved from the Second-Wave industrial age. It is also used by Feminists to define Third Wave Feminism.
~Jim
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An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. ~Jef Mallett
It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them. ~Pierre Beaumarchais
Of course, the only problem with this view, is that it contradicts scripture. Scripture quite clearly shows that differing groups of believers or individuals were saved and then later baptized with the Holy Spirit. This alone proves that they are two separate events. If they can happen separately, then they are not the same.
Not to mention, in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit came upon people who were not born again. This again proves without doubt that salvation (ie, the new birth), and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are two different things.
What this argument misses is that salvation is a change in our spiritual nature and family, that is, it is a work of the Spirit on our spirit, regenerating it and renewing it, what we call being born again.
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
-John 3:3
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit however, is a different animal altogether. It is the Spirit poured out upon flesh to empower it for service:
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
-Acts 2:16-18
That is why it could occur in the Old Covenant before the regeneration of the human spirit, and why it is not the same work of grace as salvation, but a serarate one.
That is not to say that it cannot happen at the same time as salvation, as we see in the example of the centurions household, much like one can drive a car and talk on the phone at the same time (though it may not be recommended). But they are certainly not the same thing.
Peace...
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Last edited by dkbwarrior; 8th March 2012 at 11:03 AM.
Actually, the Bible "shows that differing groups of believers or individuals were saved and then later filled (not 'baptized') with the Holy Spirit"--two separate functions of the Holy Spirit. ~Jim.
,
__________________
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. ~Jef Mallett
It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them. ~Pierre Beaumarchais
Actually, the Bible "shows that differing groups of believers or individuals were saved and then later filled (not 'baptized') with the Holy Spirit"--two separate functions of the Holy Spirit. ~Jim.
Well, I disagree. They are synonymous terms, per the context of the book of Acts, as the apostles being "filled with the Holy Ghost" was a direct fulfillment of Jesus promise that they would be "baptized with the Holy Ghost":
4And, being assembled together with them,
commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem,
but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,
Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
-Acts 1:4-8
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
-Acts 2:1-4
Unless, of course, you are contending that what happened on the day of Pentecost was not a fulfillment of Jesus promise that they would be "baptized with the Holy Ghost"? That would be a novel interpretation, and not very orthodox, any any way, shape, or form.
Peace...
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Well, I disagree. They are synonymous terms, per the context of the book of Acts, as the apostles being "filled with the Holy Ghost" was a direct fulfillment of Jesus promise that they would be "baptized with the Holy Ghost":
4And, being assembled together with them,
commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem,
but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,
Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
-Acts 1:4-8
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
-Acts 2:1-4
Unless, of course, you are contending that what happened on the day of Pentecost was not a fulfillment of Jesus promise that they would be "baptized with the Holy Ghost"? That would be a novel interpretation, and not very orthodox, any any way, shape, or form.
Peace...
How about this verse then?
John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Not arguing, just wondering your thoughts.
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