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  #11  
Unread 23rd February 2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by a pilgrim View Post
Sorry, the scriptures say otherwise:

Rom. 11
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


Christ made a new creation, that is to say, the Bride, the Lambs wife. He is not bringing Gentiles into Israel, but into a new creation. The middle wall was broken down and removed and both Jews and Gentiles who will repent and believe become part of the new creation, the Church.
Waaaaay too many disconnects with this belief.

A. God said almost everywhere throughout Scriptures that it’s One body, One baptism, One Spirit, One Seed, One Shepherd, One Lord, One God, One faith, One way to salvation.
If you for one second believe that Abraham, the father of your faith is not included in the same group of believers as you, you are preaching dual salvation roads. There is only one faith, either you are also part of the elected remnant, the saints and true believers in God or you are not. God doesn’t have two flocks, rather He makes it clear in John 10 that those NOT of the ONE and ONLY true flock, He must get and bring them to the One and only flock. He is my shepherd, just like He was Moses’ shepherd.

B. It is rather clear from verse 17 that you and I, wild olive branches are grafted in AMONG them. We are grafted AMONG believing NATURAL branches becoming PARTAKERS with them. Doesn’t that sound familiar? Before we were strangers to the covenants, excluded from the saints. Who did God make both covenants with? The Church?
Romans 9:4-5
4. who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5. whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Do any of that sound like past tense to you?

C. By claiming that those saved after Calvary were saved “differently” then those before, does not agree with the Scriptures that make it clear that everyone who was, is and will be saved are saved BY grace through faith. So if all believers are saved the same way, especially considering that Messiah died before the foundation of the world, it would be absurd to suggest that God has two groups of believers.

D. The barrier that was broken as per Ephesians 2, was broken so that Gentiles can also come to salvation. Romans 1:16 is clear in saying that salvation is to the Jews FIRST and ALSO to the Gentile. This hasn’t changed. We are currently in the time of the mystery. Until the fullness of gentiles comes, Gentiles will be able to be grafted among God’s people, contrary to nature, because they are being grafted into a good tree, being wild branches. If you doubt that the tree is an Israeli tree (not nationally, but of the promise Rom 9:6) you only need to look at these two verses. “And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?” Why is it call “their own olive tree?” Why can unbelieving Israel be grafted again into THEIR OWN TREE, if they believe, if it is indeed a “NEW TREE”? See what I mean? To call it something new is faulty. On soo many counts.

Originally Posted by a pilgrim View Post
We, Gentiles, were without hope because Israel did not take the Good News of a Redeeming God to the lost, but internalized their religion and then forsook it. So, he cut them off.
Think about this buddy. If Israel didn’t take the good news of a redeeming God to the lost, you and I wouldn’t be saved today. Even after the time Yeshua came, He told His disciples to NOT GO TO THE GENTILES until the Spirit comes. Matthew 28:19 is Yeshua, re-instructing Israel to be a light to the nations, teaching His Good News and His Ways to the nations.
Almost everyone in Acts who became believers were Jewish. It wasn’t until those Jewish believers took the good news to the nations that we were able to hear, as more and more Gentiles came to Messiah. If Israel did not take the good news to the nations, like you imply, you’d still be lost.
--that’s without getting into the discussion that God has partially blinded them, SO that you and I could be saved.
“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;”
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  #12  
Unread 24th February 2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tzadik View Post
Waaaaay too many disconnects with this belief.
Yes, but I'm afraid they're in your perception of the truth because you are trying to fit the square peg of the New Testament Bride into the round hole of National Israel.

Originally Posted by tzadik View Post
A. God said almost everywhere throughout Scriptures that it’s One body, One baptism, One Spirit, One Seed, One Shepherd, One Lord, One God, One faith, One way to salvation.
If you for one second believe that Abraham, the father of your faith is not included in the same group of believers as you, you are preaching dual salvation roads. There is only one faith, either you are also part of the elected remnant, the saints and true believers in God or you are not. God doesn’t have two flocks, rather He makes it clear in John 10 that those NOT of the ONE and ONLY true flock, He must get and bring them to the One and only flock. He is my shepherd, just like He was Moses’ shepherd.
I believe we are in the same "spiritual" assembly as Abraham, but the Nation of Israel rejected their Messiah and God did just what Rom. 11 says, He cut them off. In in the text, read it. . . believe it.

Originally Posted by tzadik View Post
B. It is rather clear from verse 17 that you and I, wild olive branches are grafted in AMONG them. We are grafted AMONG believing NATURAL branches becoming PARTAKERS with them. Doesn’t that sound familiar? Before we were strangers to the covenants, excluded from the saints. Who did God make both covenants with? The Church?
Yes, I believe that. And to those Jews who have believed, their identity is no longer based on their nationality because in Christ we are the same. We are together in the OLIVE TREE, Christ, not us in Israel.

Gal. 3
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


National Israel is cut off and under judgment until they Nationally repent, which they will do at the close of the tribulation.


Originally Posted by tzadik View Post
Romans 9:4-5
4. who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5. whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Do any of that sound like past tense to you?
Yes, and let's CONTINUE reading to have these verses take context:

Rom. 9
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


CLEARLY, the scripture teaches us that NATIONAL Israel is not God's Israel, but SPIRITUAL Israel, who, through Christ, that came through Isaac, are part of the current redeemed remnant. UNBELIEVING Israel is STILL under condemnation.

Rom. 9
[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[14] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


Jacob is a picture of the SPIRITUAL which is accempted of God, and Esau is a picture of the NATIONAL (Christ rejecting) Israel who God rejects, yea, hates.


Originally Posted by tzadik View Post
C. By claiming that those saved after Calvary were saved “differently” then those before, does not agree with the Scriptures that make it clear that everyone who was, is and will be saved are saved BY grace through faith. So if all believers are saved the same way, especially considering that Messiah died before the foundation of the world, it would be absurd to suggest that God has two groups of believers.
I never said that those of the Old Covenant were saved any other way besides faith. That is biblical.

Originally Posted by tzadik View Post
D. The barrier that was broken as per Ephesians 2, was broken so that Gentiles can also come to salvation. Romans 1:16 is clear in saying that salvation is to the Jews FIRST and ALSO to the Gentile. This hasn’t changed. We are currently in the time of the mystery. Until the fullness of gentiles comes, Gentiles will be able to be grafted among God’s people, contrary to nature, because they are being grafted into a good tree, being wild branches. If you doubt that the tree is an Israeli tree (not nationally, but of the promise Rom 9:6) you only need to look at these two verses. “And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?” Why is it call “their own olive tree?” Why can unbelieving Israel be grafted again into THEIR OWN TREE, if they believe, if it is indeed a “NEW TREE”? See what I mean? To call it something new is faulty. On soo many counts.
I would disagree with your premise that the tree is Israel. Notice:

Rom. 11
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


Christ is the HOLY root, that brings holiness and righteousness to the branches. If the branch does not bear fruit was is done to the branch?

John 15
[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

It is NOT a contextual violation here to borrow from John's illustration. The ROOT/VINE is Christ. If the branch does not bear fruit that is evidence of it's vital connection to the ROOT, the branch is CUT OFF.


Originally Posted by tzadik View Post
Think about this buddy. If Israel didn’t take the good news of a redeeming God to the lost, you and I wouldn’t be saved today. Even after the time Yeshua came, He told His disciples to NOT GO TO THE GENTILES until the Spirit comes. Matthew 28:19 is Yeshua, re-instructing Israel to be a light to the nations, teaching His Good News and His Ways to the nations.
Almost everyone in Acts who became believers were Jewish. It wasn’t until those Jewish believers took the good news to the nations that we were able to hear, as more and more Gentiles came to Messiah. If Israel did not take the good news to the nations, like you imply, you’d still be lost.
--that’s without getting into the discussion that God has partially blinded them, SO that you and I could be saved.
“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;”
Jesus made it clear. Let's pick up on his parable:

Matt. 21
[36] Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
[37] But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
[38] But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
[39] And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
[40] When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
[41] They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, [what has the last 2,000 years of history shown in regards to the ill favor of the Jews?] and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, [this is the New Testament assembly, Jews and Gentiles both,] which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[44] And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
[45] And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


Rom. 11 makes it clear, tzdik, HE CUT THEM OFF. That is not hard to understand, but can be hard to ACCEPT if you are trying to do the ISRAEL thing. The BRIDE is a NEW CREATION. Face it.

Rom. 11
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
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  #13  
Unread 24th February 2012, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by a pilgrim View Post
I believe we are in the same "spiritual" assembly as Abraham, but the Nation of Israel rejected their Messiah and God did just what Rom. 11 says, He cut them off. In in the text, read it. . . believe it.
I do, but what you seem to be missing is that in verse 17 you and me are grafted in AMONG believing natural branches.
Verse 17 says SOME branches are broken off, NOT ALL the branches. So YES unbelieving Israel is broken off, but believing Israel remains in it. Abraham, Moses, Daniel, Paul, Peter all make up Believing Israel. That is the point Iím trying to make. You are so set in trying to prove that national Israel is broken off, that you miss the obvious point that the remnant, elected by grace of the natural branches remains in, by faith and YOU and I as Gentiles are grafted in AMONG THEM. So even though perhaps the majority of national Israel remains broken off until they believe, we are grafted in AMONG the remnant of believing Israel.

Originally Posted by a pilgrim View Post
Yes, I believe that. And to those Jews who have believed, their identity is no longer based on their nationality because in Christ we are the same. We are together in the OLIVE TREE, Christ, not us in Israel.
Gal. 3
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
But because again you fail to see that not all Israel is broken off in verse 17 you seek to ďeraseĒ their identity as believing Israel, when itís clear that it is you as a Gentile that is grafted in among Godís people, NOT national Israel/those who have been broken off for the unbelief, but rather believing Israel, like Abraham, Moses, John and Paul.
Originally Posted by a pilgrim View Post
Yes, and let's CONTINUE reading to have these verses take context:

Rom. 9
[6] Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


[color=Black]CLEARLY, the scripture teaches us that NATIONAL Israel is not God's Israel, but SPIRITUAL Israel, who, through Christ, that came through Isaac, are part of the current redeemed remnant. UNBELIEVING Israel is STILL under condemnation.
EXACTLY the point Iím trying to prove. Itís not about being a descended of Israel, but only those adopted as sons into the true household of God are true Israel.
I agree with you on this, but disagree that ďSpiritual IsraelĒ started in Acts 2. Godís Israel contains all true believers, by grace through faith starting MUCH MUCH earlier than in Acts 2.
Everyone who was imputed righteousness by faith is part of Godís Israel. Abraham is part of Godís Israel, Paul is part of Godís Israel and I have been grafted contrary to nature into Godís Israel 

Originally Posted by a pilgrim View Post
I would disagree with your premise that the tree is Israel. Notice:

Rom. 11
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


Christ is the HOLY root, that brings holiness and righteousness to the branches. If the branch does not bear fruit was is done to the branch?

John 15
[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

It is NOT a contextual violation here to borrow from John's illustration. The ROOT/VINE is Christ. If the branch does not bear fruit that is evidence of it's vital connection to the ROOT, the branch is CUT OFF.
Again, I agree with this, but you are again missing the fact that NOT ALL THE BRANCHES WERE BROKEN OFF for their unbelief! Do you see that now? Verse 17 makes it clear, SOME were broken off, and those natural branches that were broken off (unbelieving Israel) were broken off for their unbelief.
Believing Israel on the contrary REMAINED in the tree and Gentile believers were/are/will continue to be grafted in AMONG THEM. ďSpiritual IsraelĒ ďGodís IsraelĒ ďHousehold of GodĒ whatever you want to call it. Does not only contain believers from Acts 2 onward, but rather contains ALL SAINTS, true believers in the God of Israel!
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  #14  
Unread 24th February 2012, 04:48 PM
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Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree, but hopefully, in an agreeable way. I "think" we're on the same page in that our only hope of heaven is the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary.

That will have to be our mutual bond until we all come into the unity of the faith.

a brother,
Ben
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Unread 24th February 2012, 06:09 PM
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hi tzadik,

You posted: Not sure I follow. Either itís valid or itís not valid. Romans 1:16 says that it is the power of salvation to all who believe, to the Jew first, and ALSO to the Gentile.

You might want to consider that in the order of salvation in a historical timeline. Salvation did come first to the Jews. It was the Jews that Jesus spent over 3 years teaching and instructing and it wasn't until Paul that the gospel began to be spread throughout the Gentile world.

So, the power of the gospel unto salvation did go first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles, just as Paul wrote.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
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Unread 24th February 2012, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gentlemantech48 View Post
First of all, I love Jewish people and they need to hear the gospel like anyone else who doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. However, now that I've come to believe that Matthew 24:1-32 is NOT talking about the last days and is instead Jesus warning Israel that the old covenant was coming to an end that that Rome would bring destruction, I now question whether or not God will step in and protect Israel if Iran and others try to destroy her. We may soon know the answer to that question. I really don't know if God has an "obligation" to protect Israel or if He will allow their destruction like he allowed 6 million of them to be slaughtered by Germany. After all, they rejected The Messiah that had been promised for thousands of years. They hung him on a cross and most were unrepentant. The prophecies of Jesus' coming are still in front of their faces and they do not see it.

With that being said, I am not saying we should discontinue being friends to Israel or that we should not step in to help them stop Iran. After all, Iran is not only a threat to Israel but to other countries including our own. All I am saying is that what I learned from Hank Hanegrraaf's book, The Apocalypse Code" has forced me to take a new look at what I've been taught for 40 years.
Did He protect the Jews during the Holocaust?
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Unread 24th February 2012, 10:17 PM
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Steve: I already addressed that. He did not protect them...however, many Bible teachers believe that because God made a covenant with Israel to give them the land that they now posses that He will stop any nation that tries to take it away from them. In other words, they believe that God will keep His word and that eventually many Jews will come to know Jesus as Savior (Messiah). The question that I am raising is if God is indeed ("obligated") to protect Israel. They had their land taken away once before and He did not protect them during the holocaust. So maybe we don't fully understand the "promise" that He made to them. Maybe it ended when the Old Covenant ended as described in Matthew 24.
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  #18  
Unread 25th February 2012, 11:11 AM
Ted

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hi g48,

Be very careful. Obligated carries with it a sense that the recipient deserves something from God. God has made several oaths, promises or covenants with various people and all of mankind regarding different issues. The protection of Israel is one of them. However, I think it clear that that protection is based on a national level and not necessarily an individual one.

In the days that Nebechudnezzar took captive all of Israel that was clearly explained as a punishment against the people, but the land still remained and was given back to them. I view the holocaust in the same light. I'm confident that in the last days Israel, the nation, will still exist and God will ultimately protect that land and His people on it. Remembering always that God has said that HE has hardened Israel's heart in part, to allow for Gentiles, too, to come to know His salvation. He also says that it is He who will also open their eyes to the truth of their Messiah.

God has a plan and it is a very great and awesome plan. I don't know about you, but I give thanks regularly for the perfect working out of His plan.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
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Unread 25th February 2012, 11:14 AM
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"Will God protect Israel?"

YES!
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  #20  
Unread 25th February 2012, 06:36 PM
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Yes, "obligated" was probably a bad choice of words. Yes, I am awed by God's perfect plan and am thankful to Him for it. We may soon understand His plan a little better depending on what happens in the Middle East. Russia, "The great bear from the North" is definitely siding with Islam along with China. If we ever wondered what the "Anti-Christ" looks like, look at Islam. They have almost totally conquered Spain and are geared up to take over other countries as the people hide their head in the sand. Israel and US are the ultimate "prizes" they seek. We have a president who is so bent on being "politically correct" that it will only be by God's grace that Israel and the US are saved from Satan's attack.
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