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  #121  
Old 15th May 2012, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by oi_antz View Post
Yes, good statement. Am I correct that you believe you have never experienced God?
Yes, I would say that's correct.
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  #122  
Old 16th May 2012, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JGG View Post
Yes, I would say that's correct.
There's square one again. I can't imagine why you don't have a desire to.
__________________
Psalms 25:14
Friendship with God is reserved for those who reverence him. With them alone he shares the secrets of his promises.

John 6:63
The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Worship the true God: ISAIAH 44:6-23

Galatians 5:22-23, NLT
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

Razeontherock
Chucking your brain out the window makes Biblical Christianity impossible


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  #123  
Old 16th May 2012, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by oi_antz View Post
There's square one again. I can't imagine why you don't have a desire to.
You ask why I don't have a desire to, for me the question is reversed: Why would I have a desire to? I see no truth in it. I don't seem to need it. I don't benefit from it. I don't see where such a desire would come from.
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  #124  
Old 21st May 2012, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by JGG View Post
You ask why I don't have a desire to, for me the question is reversed: Why would I have a desire to? I see no truth in it. I don't seem to need it. I don't benefit from it. I don't see where such a desire would come from.
Do you think those statements represent the typical atheist you described in the OP?
__________________
Psalms 25:14
Friendship with God is reserved for those who reverence him. With them alone he shares the secrets of his promises.

John 6:63
The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Worship the true God: ISAIAH 44:6-23

Galatians 5:22-23, NLT
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

Razeontherock
Chucking your brain out the window makes Biblical Christianity impossible


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  #125  
Old 21st May 2012, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by oi_antz View Post
Do you think those statements represent the typical atheist you described in the OP?
I didn't really describe an atheist in the OP. It's more of a hypothetical atheist. However, I think, for a lot of atheists, there's no real drive to find God, at least, not a personal one. Certainly most atheists have a hard time finding truth in God concepts. That is sort of the defining concept of atheism.
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  #126  
Old 23rd May 2012, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by JGG View Post
I didn't really describe an atheist in the OP. It's more of a hypothetical atheist. However, I think, for a lot of atheists, there's no real drive to find God, at least, not a personal one. Certainly most atheists have a hard time finding truth in God concepts. That is sort of the defining concept of atheism.
You asked why an atheist would come to Christ. What do you think Christ is? I see you are making a distinction here between a personal God and some other hypothetical God, whatever suffices your imagination I presume. Let me define for you, according to official Christian doctrine, exactly what and who Christ is. This is found in the first four verses of the book of John:

John 1
New International Version (NIV)
The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

John says that Christ is the Word of God made flesh. Since God expresses Himself as Word, then it is only natural that He is a personal God. Why would an atheist not be interested in knowing Him? Why is it any less interesting the concept that God is personal than impersonal? I just don't understand that mindset.
__________________
Psalms 25:14
Friendship with God is reserved for those who reverence him. With them alone he shares the secrets of his promises.

John 6:63
The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Worship the true God: ISAIAH 44:6-23

Galatians 5:22-23, NLT
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

Razeontherock
Chucking your brain out the window makes Biblical Christianity impossible


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  #127  
Old 23rd May 2012, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by oi_antz View Post
You asked why an atheist would come to Christ. What do you think Christ is? I see you are making a distinction here between a personal God and some other hypothetical God, whatever suffices your imagination I presume.
I'm just leaving the door open for pantheists, and those who believe in Spinoza's God who frequently don't make a distinction between these concepts and a lack of God.

Let me define for you, according to official Christian doctrine, exactly what and who Christ is. This is found in the first four verses of the book of John:

John 1
New International Version (NIV)
The Word Became Flesh
Firstly, what does that mean, The Word became flesh? How? Why? What word(s) was it? Was this word spoken, thought, heard, written? Who received this word?

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
Couldn't we just say "in the beginning there was God?" It seems there's a lot of redundancy here.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
How were all things made? What does the light of all mankind mean?

John says that Christ is the Word of God made flesh.
Which means what? How was a word made flesh?

Since God expresses Himself as Word, then it is only natural that He is a personal God.
Howso? To whom does God express Himself?

Why would an atheist not be interested in knowing Him?
I'm not going to speak for others, but to me, those words just don't mean anything. It's like poetry made to amaze and bewilder, but not to actually convey any real meaning or information. It doesn't really tell me anything concrete, and simply seems like a bunch of vague assertions.

Why is it any less interesting the concept that God is personal than impersonal? I just don't understand that mindset.
Because a personal God seems like indulging wish fulfillment. It's not specifically that an impersonal God is more interesting, just (slightly) more likely. It doesn't seem likely that an infinite being, who presumably created such an immense universe such as the one we live in, is particularly concerned with lowly beings like us, and whether or not we have sexual intercourse before co-signing a piece of paper endorsed by our government or religious officials.
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  #128  
Old 23rd May 2012, 05:16 AM
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Well if I didn't know you better I might have presumed that I'd struck a nerve! Your questions are real and rudimentary, yet very common. As always I can only share my own understanding, but that has never failed to entertain us before has it?
Originally Posted by JGG View Post
I'm just leaving the door open for pantheists, and those who believe in Spinoza's God who frequently don't make a distinction between these concepts and a lack of God.
Ok.
Originally Posted by JGG View Post
Firstly, what does that mean, The Word became flesh? How? Why? What word(s) was it? Was this word spoken, thought, heard, written? Who received this word?
Consider this: Word is distinct from word, in that Word is a form of expression, much as "art" is a form of expression, or "music" is. Whereas word is a single entity of Word, much like paint is an entity of art, or notes are an entity of music. In the beginning, God expressed Himself through Word. The book of Genesis tells us that He literally created existence by speaking His will. So to have a will is a power everyone holds, to express that will is not necessarily a power everyone holds. But the bible teaches that God had the power to express His will by Word. Thought is Word, speech is Word, writing is Word and hearing is the act of receiving Word.
Originally Posted by JGG View Post
Couldn't we just say "in the beginning there was God?" It seems there's a lot of redundancy here.
No there is no redundancy, unless you expect the writer to presume you would already know what He had thought 2,000 years ago.
Originally Posted by JGG View Post
How were all things made? What does the light of all mankind mean?
Boy, that's tough. If you entertain the idea of an omnipotent God then you will entertain the idea that His jump means jump. I don't know how else to put it. The light of all mankind, hmmm. The other day I mentioned the following verse and someone said that we each have some light within us, but some choose not to follow it. Here's the verse:

John 3:20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.[g]”
Originally Posted by JGG View Post
Which means what? How was a word made flesh?
"The Word of God" is distinct from "a word". It wasn't just a word that became flesh, it was the entire spiritual embodiment of the expression of God's will that became a living, breathing human being.
Originally Posted by JGG View Post
Howso? To whom does God express Himself?
According to St Paul, everyone is witness to the expression of God.
Rom 1:20
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

So why are there atheist's and idolators? Read on:

21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

So part of having a healthy relationship with our personal God means to worship Him or at least give Him thanks. Can you explain to me why you, having once been of Christian belief, one day failed to give Him thanks? Was it solely because of the way you were treated by your church?
Originally Posted by JGG View Post
I'm not going to speak for others, but to me, those words just don't mean anything. It's like poetry made to amaze and bewilder, but not to actually convey any real meaning or information. It doesn't really tell me anything concrete, and simply seems like a bunch of vague assertions.
These are assertions, not so much vague, but with the authority of someone who witnessed God's Word made flesh. You shouldn't dismiss that authority unless you have sufficient authority to do so.
Originally Posted by JGG View Post
Because a personal God seems like indulging wish fulfillment. It's not specifically that an impersonal God is more interesting, just (slightly) more likely. It doesn't seem likely that an infinite being, who presumably created such an immense universe such as the one we live in, is particularly concerned with lowly beings like us, and whether or not we have sexual intercourse before co-signing a piece of paper endorsed by our government or religious officials.
Well I see it in quite the opposite way. I believe that an artist who conceived and made a work of art would take an immense interest in the health and well-being of it. Since He also has the power to make eternal beings, and He obviously expressed His desire to do so from dust, He must take an interest in the well-being of those creatures too. Of course we are puny not even a speck of dust on a microscope lens in scale of the known universe, but size doesn't matter to God. We are exactly the size He made us because that is what pleased Him. We are His expression of love, corrupted by sin and redeemed by Christ. And if you don't believe that fornication harms His creation, then think what the sanctity of marriage means.
__________________
Psalms 25:14
Friendship with God is reserved for those who reverence him. With them alone he shares the secrets of his promises.

John 6:63
The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Worship the true God: ISAIAH 44:6-23

Galatians 5:22-23, NLT
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

Razeontherock
Chucking your brain out the window makes Biblical Christianity impossible


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  #129  
Old 23rd May 2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by JGG View Post
"If Hell is not eternal and not a place of punishment eternally, then Jesus dying on the cross was in vain. There was no reason for Him to take away the sins of the world.

Why then would an atheist come to Christ if there was no punishment, no penalty for breaking God's law?"

This is a question among many, put forth by a Christian elsewhere on the board.

Discuss...
You believe that establishing Jesus as the King of Kings will usher in a golden age of eternal life and the Resurrection, and don't wish to be on the other side of this life looking like a fool who didn't take the time to figure out what was going on around them and contribute correctly.

Hell not actually existing doesn't mean no accountability or guilt for improper acts, or for failure to do the work you should be doing in this life, just no alternate dimension of suffering to go to.
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  #130  
Old 28th May 2012, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by oi_antz View Post
Well if I didn't know you better I might have presumed that I'd struck a nerve! Your questions are real and rudimentary, yet very common. As always I can only share my own understanding, but that has never failed to entertain us before has it?

Ok.

Consider this: Word is distinct from word, in that Word is a form of expression, much as "art" is a form of expression, or "music" is. Whereas word is a single entity of Word, much like paint is an entity of art, or notes are an entity of music. In the beginning, God expressed Himself through Word. The book of Genesis tells us that He literally created existence by speaking His will. So to have a will is a power everyone holds, to express that will is not necessarily a power everyone holds. But the bible teaches that God had the power to express His will by Word. Thought is Word, speech is Word, writing is Word and hearing is the act of receiving Word.
He expresses Himself through Himself to Himself?

No there is no redundancy, unless you expect the writer to presume you would already know what He had thought 2,000 years ago.
I don't presume to think I know what He thinks now. Although the idea that what God "thinks" 2,000 years ago is in anyway different from what He "thinks" now doesn't sit well with me.

Boy, that's tough. If you entertain the idea of an omnipotent God then you will entertain the idea that His jump means jump. I don't know how else to put it. The light of all mankind, hmmm. The other day I mentioned the following verse and someone said that we each have some light within us, but some choose not to follow it. Here's the verse:
Using the same idea, how would God make someone jump? Does God force them to do it? Intimidate? Does He make the ground dip beneath them? Does He take control of their body? How would it happen?

"The Word of God" is distinct from "a word". It wasn't just a word that became flesh, it was the entire spiritual embodiment of the expression of God's will that became a living, breathing human being.
How can a human being be the emodiment of the "spiritual expression of God?"

So why are there atheist's and idolators? Read on:

21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

So part of having a healthy relationship with our personal God means to worship Him or at least give Him thanks. Can you explain to me why you, having once been of Christian belief, one day failed to give Him thanks? Was it solely because of the way you were treated by your church?
No, like I've said before, I didn't see any reason to believe there was a being to give thanks to, or even one that required, or even wanted thanks.

These are assertions, not so much vague, but with the authority of someone who witnessed God's Word made flesh. You shouldn't dismiss that authority unless you have sufficient authority to do so.
Well no, I see no reason to accept that such an authority even exists. I dismiss the claim that there is an authority.

Well I see it in quite the opposite way. I believe that an artist who conceived and made a work of art would take an immense interest in the health and well-being of it.
Why would we assume that God is an "artist?" Again, that's a human characteristic. I made art as a child. All that art is in the trash now. I don't think twice about it.

Since He also has the power to make eternal beings, and He obviously expressed His desire to do so from dust, He must take an interest in the well-being of those creatures too.
I don't see that as a given.

Of course we are puny not even a speck of dust on a microscope lens in scale of the known universe, but size doesn't matter to God. We are exactly the size He made us because that is what pleased Him. We are His expression of love, corrupted by sin and redeemed by Christ. And if you don't believe that fornication harms His creation, then think what the sanctity of marriage means.
Well, what does the sanctity of marriage mean? Don't get me wrong, I'm a widower, and I'm still loyal to my wife, but that's because I love her, not because we married.
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