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  #241  
Old 7th February 2012, 02:39 PM
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Confronting the Claim of Eastern Orthodoxy to be the True Church


Understanding the conflicting claims of Catholicism versus Eastern Orthodoxy
Among the lapsed from the Catholic Church in the turbulent post-conciliar period are those Catholics who became so disenchanted with the liturgical disarray and doctrinal unrest evident in Western Catholicism that they became converts to Eastern Orthodoxy. They found themselves influenced by the Eastern Orthodox claim to preserve the doctrinal, sacramental, and liturgical heritage of the ancient Church, and in fact, to be the historical continuation of the true Church of Jesus Christ. Those defecting from the Catholic Church found comforting Eastern Orthodoxy’s professing the doctrine of the first seven ecumenical Councils, its possession of the seven sacraments, and its sacramental and liturgical system revolving around a splendid and beautiful celebration of the Holy Divine Liturgy. Eastern Orthodoxy’s ancient hierarchical fabric of rule by patriarchs and Bishops, and its principles of the religious and monastic life characterized by ancient asceticism appeared to be further evidence of its identity with the ancient Church of the first Millennium.

It is distressing that some Catholic bishops and priests have expressed little concern that some of their flock have embraced schism, and even heresy, in defecting from Catholic Communion. Objectively speaking, both schism and heresy constitute serious sins against the Unity of the Church (cf. The Catechism of the Catholic Church §817). Moreover, it has not been unusual for some Eastern Orthodox (and even Protestants), seeking to become Catholics, to be told by some Catholic priests to “stay where they are” in order to serve the cause of ecumenism. This is, assuredly, not what the Church means by the “New Evangelization,” and reveals little or no zeal for the salvation of souls. It would appear that such reluctant or hesitant priests think that “a very close communion in matters of faith” between the Catholic Church and the separated Eastern Churches, suffices for the salvation of souls. Did they feel that Catholics and Orthodox were already so one in faith that there was no need to expound and defend the fullness of revealed truth confided to the “one and only Church of Jesus Christ,” the Catholic Church? (cf. Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium§8 and 17)

There is need for Catholics, especially priests, to engage in a convincing Apologetics when confronted by Catholics tempted to become Eastern Orthodox, or by members of the Eastern Orthodox Churches claiming to represent the orthodoxy of the Church before the tragic Schism between East and West, developing after 1054 A.D. Certainly, well-informed Catholics are able to present formidable arguments drawn from the Scriptures, Fathers, and Councils in favor of the Roman Pontiff’s universal authority in the Church, the legitimacy of the doctrine of the Filioque, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception, not to mention other doctrines questioned or denied by Eastern Orthodox, who assume they constitute the “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church,” signified in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed of 381 A.D., indulglng themselves with the repeated assertion made to Catholics.
Continued- http://www.hprweb.com/2012/01/confronting-the-claim-of-eastern-orthodoxy-to-be-the-true-church/
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  #242  
Old 7th February 2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Needing_Grace View Post
"Et en unun Dominum Iesu Christum
Filio Dei unigenitum et ex patre natum ante omnia saecula."

Word for word, slavishly literal translation:

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ
Son of God only-begotten and born of the Father before all worlds/ages."

The Son is begotten eternally of the Father. In other words, He was begotten before creation, at the moment of creation of the cosmos, at the moment of the creation of man, at the moment of the fall, at the moment of the call of Abraham, at the moment of the exile in Egypt, at the moment of the Conquest of Canaan, at the moment David was naughty with Bathsheba, at the moment Israel was taken captive into Babylon, at the moment He was conceived by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, at the moment of His birth, at the moment He was found in the Temple...

He is always being begotten at every moment in time and in eternity.

How it works is a HUGE mystery, but it's God. All we can do is:
I think the heresy regarded the flesh of the Lord - as being born meant when he was born and Him not being eternal.


The meaning of only begotten. "Only begotten" is from the Greek monogenes. This word is used nine times in the Greek New Testament. The word is a compound word, mono, meaning only, and gennesis, meaning birth. "Only begotten" (monogenes) is used five times by John, three by Luke, and once by the writer of Hebrews. Luke used the word to describe the widow's son, "only son of his mother" (Lk. 7: 12, see 8: 42, 9: 38). The writer of Hebrews said Abraham "offered up his only begotten son" (Heb. 11: 17).


So i stressed that Jesus was eternal...prior to His Fleshly birth.
Because the heresies that arose would suggest He was born [begotten] of the flesh and not eternal.


It is difficult to put these things in words that are firm against all heresies past and present.

Although i am not understanding your use of begotten in every instance.


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Matthew Chapter 7

7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

One of President Obama's top aides, David Axelrod, declared: “the era of cheap gasoline is over.” Under President Obama, gas prices have increased about $2.00 per gallon on average.


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  #243  
Old 7th February 2012, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by WarriorAngel View Post
I think the heresy regarded the flesh of the Lord - as being born meant when he was born and Him not being eternal.



The meaning of only begotten. "Only begotten" is from the Greek monogenes. This word is used nine times in the Greek New Testament. The word is a compound word, mono, meaning only, and gennesis, meaning birth. "Only begotten" (monogenes) is used five times by John, three by Luke, and once by the writer of Hebrews. Luke used the word to describe the widow's son, "only son of his mother" (Lk. 7: 12, see 8: 42, 9: 38). The writer of Hebrews said Abraham "offered up his only begotten son" (Heb. 11: 17).



So i stressed that Jesus was eternal...prior to His Fleshly birth.
Because the heresies that arose would suggest He was born [begotten] of the flesh and not eternal.


It is difficult to put these things in words that are firm against all heresies past and present.

Although i am not understanding your use of begotten in every instance.

I think the point that is trying to be expressed is that Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father as God the Son, and conceived in time in the Virgin Mary as the Son of Mary. Jesus' begotteness from the Father is eternal and not temporal.
  #244  
Old 7th February 2012, 03:38 PM
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what is the Orthodox view on the interpretation of Scripture? It's not private interpretation like it is in Protestantism, I don't think. I could be wrong.

p.s. yes I know I could google it and maybe I will but I'm just sayin
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  #245  
Old 7th February 2012, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bug View Post
what is the Orthodox view on the interpretation of Scripture? It's not private interpretation like it is in Protestantism, I don't think. I could be wrong.

p.s. yes I know I could google it and maybe I will but I'm just sayin
Hi Lady

We consider scripture to be one of the most important elements of Holy Tradition (that which was handed down to us by the apostles). We always understand Scripture within the context of the rest of Holy Tradition in which it was handed down to us from the beginning. We believe that to seperate scripture from the rest of Tradition is to remove it from the very life of the Church that has sustained it throughout history.

I don't think we differ much from Roman Catholic understanding on this, although I have heard that they consider scripture as another pillar alongside Tradition, while we consider it all to be part of Tradition.
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  #246  
Old 7th February 2012, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ortho_Cat View Post
...I have heard that [Roman Catholics] consider scripture as another pillar alongside Tradition...
You may hear the common 'three-legged stool' analogy, where the three legs are 'Scripture, Tradition, and Church'.

The Catechism describe the relationship between the three in the best way:

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41

84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46
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  #247  
Old 7th February 2012, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ortho_Cat View Post
Hi Lady

We consider scripture to be one of the most important elements of Holy Tradition (that which was handed down to us by the apostles). We always understand Scripture within the context of the rest of Holy Tradition in which it was handed down to us from the beginning. We believe that to seperate scripture from the rest of Tradition is to remove it from the very life of the Church that has sustained it throughout history.

I don't think we differ much from Roman Catholic understanding on this, although I have heard that they consider scripture as another pillar alongside Tradition, while we consider it all to be part of Tradition.
what I meant is what authority do they have beyond Scripture?
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  #248  
Old 7th February 2012, 05:35 PM
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In case nobody has yet found the place where Trent spoke of the Holy Spirit's Procession, it's in the Catechism of Trent, Article VIII:

With regard to the words immediately succeeding: who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, the faithful are to be taught that the Holy Ghost proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son, as from one principle. This truth is proposed for our belief by the Creed of the Church, from which no Christian may depart, and is confirmed by the authority of the Sacred Scriptures and of Councils.
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  #249  
Old 7th February 2012, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bug View Post
what I meant is what authority do they have beyond Scripture?
The Faith is the ultimate earthly authority. What has been believed and taught by Christians since Pentecost. I suppose "The Faith" could go by many other names; Tradition, Orthodoxy, The Faith, they all mean the same thing. It encompasses Scripture, The Councils, the writings of the Fathers, The Liturgy, the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments), Iconography, The Creed, our prayers, hymns, and traditions. All of these have various 'weight' (Scripture is the crown of Tradition) and God guides, directs, reproves, and corrects us through them all.

You're welcome to ask any questions like this in The Ancient Way, which is the subforum here for Orthodoxy. We'd love to have you.
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  #250  
Old 7th February 2012, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Hazen View Post
The Faith is the ultimate earthly authority. What has been believed and taught by Christians since Pentecost. I suppose "The Faith" could go by many other names; Tradition, Orthodoxy, The Faith, they all mean the same thing. It encompasses Scripture, The Councils, the writings of the Fathers, The Liturgy, the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments), Iconography, The Creed, our prayers, hymns, and traditions. All of these have various 'weight' (Scripture is the crown of Tradition) and God guides, directs, reproves, and corrects us through them all.

You're welcome to ask any questions like this in The Ancient Way, which is the subforum here for Orthodoxy. We'd love to have you.
thanks. your list is good. I'm having a problem rejecting the notion of the Papacy per se. I feel like I'm "decapitating" the faith thus far - so I'm trying to understand the differences between the RCC and EO perspectives on this. I may have to end up going to TAW if I cannot feel satisfied with my queries.
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