Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

Pfaffenhofen · #1 25th January 2012, 07:32 AM

In the first Millenium, there were dozens of experiments on Theology. Of whatever you could think about the nature of God and Jesus Christ appeared: One Person, 2 Persons, 3 persons, one Nature, 3 Natures and whatever.

When you reached the 1000 dC, you find one Church, strong and firm in Europe, unknown in other Continents.

Then Reformation came. As a Catholic, I think that it were the Protestant who separated.

I realize here and I have learned here in this Forum that many Protestant think that it was the RCC who separated from The church. This position raises many problems: separation from which Church? Who was the leader of separation? Was it leadership for not following the Reformers? Leadership for not Reforming?

Anyhow, the consequences have been fast.
Christians were expelled from Japan for fighting each other. The denominations exploded to an estimate of 30 thousand and growing at a 200 a month. If the statistics are not these, please furnish others.

The interpretation by conscience and the Sola Scriptura led to a splintering of Tradition or traditions as some like to make the distinction.

The RCC reformed itself several times since then. The Trident Council and the Vatican II drove the RCC worldwide though paths the Spirit. It numbers 1 billion people. The largest Protestant one is the Anglican Communion and as I am told it is not a Church in itself but a communion - 80,000,000.

In the extreme, we could imagine that every Protestant Person could have Its own Position leading to 1 billion positions, the number I guess it is the number of Protestant.

I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

Albion · #2 25th January 2012, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Pfaffenhofen

I foresee that in hundreds of years, the splintering of Protestantism will lead to Its extinction, like the Churches of the 1st Millennium.

You can always hope, huh? But 'Will Protestantism go the way of the Roman Church' should be the question. The RCC was once united but split into numerous parts. One part continued to be prominent and opposes its former members.

So possibly that is what would happen to Protestant Christianity in the distant future, except for one fact. Protestant theology does not consider all but one of the various Christian church bodies to be invalid. It holds to the belief that the church of Christ is bigger than any legal entity organized in his name. IOW, it doesn't hurt Protestantism to have a number of different church bodies since the Church itself is not divided. Churches which are exclusivistic, however, are a different matter.

And of course Protestant Christianity is growing at present, not declining, meaning that it is well that you projected your vision to be far, far into the future where anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's. My own suspicion is that the Roman Church will still be with us in a hundred years but it will look and operate exactly like a Protestant church. And that change IS already underway.

athenken · #3 25th January 2012, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Pfaffenhofen

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

I really don't think so. And as for which group separated from whom, I would say that the Church simply had a split, and has been having them ever since.

The split that occurred in the Reformation was necessary and right due to many of the fallacies that were being taught under the Roman Catholic Church.

As for the subsequent splits, I would surmise they have been mostly due to heresy and false teachings, especially coming out of the Great Awakenings.

Albion · #4 25th January 2012, 12:35 PM

As I was saying, it would be almost impossible for Protestantism to die since no amount of splitting would affect it. Each part is part of the whole. But with Catholicism, any split becomes a non-entity or adversary by Catholic theology. Thererfore, the prospects for the survival of the RCC is a much more interesting subject, don't you think? I mean, it has already moved strongly in the direction of Protestantism since the 1960s, and the Middle Ages can't live forever.

Pfaffenhofen · #5 25th January 2012, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Albion

You can always hope, huh? But 'Will Protestantism go the way of the Roman Church' should be the question. The RCC was once united but split into numerous parts. One part continued to be prominent and opposes its former members.

So possibly that is what would happen to Protestant Christianity in the distant future, except for one fact. Protestant theology does not consider all but one of the various Christian church bodies to be invalid. It holds to the belief that the church of Christ is bigger than any legal entity organized in his name. IOW, it doesn't hurt Protestantism to have a number of different church bodies since the Church itself is not divided. Churches which are exclusivistic, however, are a different matter.

And of course Protestant Christianity is growing at present, not declining, meaning that it is well that you projected your vision to be far, far into the future where anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's. My own suspicion is that the Roman Church will still be with us in a hundred years but it will look and operate exactly like a Protestant church. And that change IS already underway.

To tell frankly what I think, it is not a pleasure for me to see the Protestant churches go.
Only if I hated them.
If I hated them, would not be here.
Actually, I hate no one as it is a waste of time.
But I fear that they will disappear for the splintering. Each new battle with modernity, abortion, homosexuality, ordination of women brings more splintering.
Unfortunately I see no other way than the Protestant Church merge into the RCC and accept the Pope and its consequences.
No way the Catholic Church will become like the Protestant. Never.
No, I do not see the Protestant Churches behaving like a One Body, in no way, in no aspect. Only theoreticallly.

Pfaffenhofen · #6 25th January 2012, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by athenken

I really don't think so. And as for which group separated from whom, I would say that the Church simply had a split, and has been having them ever since.

The split that occurred in the Reformation was necessary and right due to many of the fallacies that were being taught under the Roman Catholic Church.

As for the subsequent splits, I would surmise they have been mostly due to heresy and false teachings, especially coming out of the Great Awakenings.

The Reformation would reform from within.
Moreover, once started, Reformers cannot say anybody is wrong for every one may think by his own head, inspired by the Holy Spirit. So, as you say "heresy and false teachings", I say, that that makes no sense, there are no heresies and false teachings within Protestantism.

Albion · #7 25th January 2012, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Pfaffenhofen

Unfortunately I see no other way than the Protestant Church merge into the RCC and accept the Pope and its consequences.

Dreams can be fun, right?

No way the Catholic Church will become like the Protestant.

It's well underway. That's why I said it, not because I was dreaming of the possibility. The RCC has already become much more like a typical Protestant church in both practice and doctrine than was true only a couple of generations ago. Shall we list the ways?

Pfaffenhofen · #8 25th January 2012, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Albion

As I was saying, it would be almost impossible for Protestantism to die since no amount of splitting would affect it. Each part is part of the whole. But with Catholicism, any split becomes a non-entity or adversary by Catholic theology. Thererfore, the prospects for the survival of the RCC is a much more interesting subject, don't you think? I mean, it has already moved strongly in the direction of Protestantism since the 1960s, and the Middle Ages can't live forever.

No, the Catholic Church did not move into the Protestantism Path. Actually our paths have gone further away.
It is a pity. Every time the Protestant do something that gets them away from us, specially the Anglicans, it is a spear into our hearts, take for example, the ordination of women and the question of homosexuality. We suffered a lot for that decision took them further away from us. Even split Anglicanism.
No, only theoretically the Protestant are one Church. That is seeing too much. The doctrines are different, the congregations are different, all is different. People even create new Churches for they are dissatisfied with the one they have and they are not few.

athenken · #9 25th January 2012, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Pfaffenhofen

The Reformation would reform from within.
Moreover, once started, Reformers cannot say anybody is wrong for every one may think by his own head, inspired by the Holy Spirit. So, as you say "heresy and false teachings", I say, that that makes no sense, there are no heresies and false teachings within Protestantism.

Actually, if a teaching is in direct contradiction to what the bible teaches, then yes it is heresy. It is quite possible for people within the Protestant denominations to commit heresies. This was the backbone of what Paul was talking about in many of his letters. Which also was a huge reason for the Reformation.

To say there can be no possibility in the Protestant denominations is exteremely naive.

WinBySurrender · #10 25th January 2012, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Pfaffenhofen

Was the Reformation an Experiment gone wrong?

No, it was an experiment gone right! By your own admission, the RCC has gone through several reformations of its own since Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the Wittenberg Cathedral, and has come around to the teaching of grace for salvation, though continues to make the mistake, at least at the corporate level of the church (that is, the Vatican) that works have a role as well.

Thankfully, at least here in the Midwest, most Catholics I know have rejected works-based faith and realize that it is by faith alone that salvation is accomplished. At least we can pray the RCC makes the next logical step and joins "us Protestants" in preaching the truth of Scripture.