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  #281  
Unread 4th June 2013, 06:53 PM
Simon_Templar's Avatar
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Originally Posted by wrexsti View Post
Please listen to this above anything else, YOU CAN PRAY TO GOD ABOUT ANYTHING.
You don't have to do a bunch of hail mary's or quote something.
You don't have to pray to a saint to pass on the message.
That's nonsense.
Pray directly to God.
God absolutely loves it when you pray to him; with whatever is on your heart or mind.
This is a bit tangential, but I wanted to respond to this.

It is a common misconception that Catholics pray to Mary or the Saints instead of to God, as though we can't go to God except by going through the Saints as intermediaries etc.

What the Catholic Church actually teaches is that we should pray directly to God, and that we should also pray to Mary and the Saints to ask them to pray for us as well.

This is misunderstood by protestants as a form of worship, but it is not. It is no different than if I asked you to pray for me. All believers are alive in Christ and all believers are joined to us through Christ in the Church. They are in the Church just as we are. They worship together with us all the time. Asking them to pray for us is no different than asking the other Christians in Church every week to pray for us.

It doesn't mean that we can't pray directly to God. It simply means that we recognize that there is strength and encouragement in agreement, and that the prayers of the righteous avail much.

Regarding formal, written prayers and the like. Again the Catholic Church doesn't teach that we should only ever use written prayers. Written prayers are recognized as a valuable tool, much like praying the scriptures where we can have confidence that what we say is right and approved by God. It is also useful in times when you don't know what to pray, or you are having difficulty with distractions and things like that.

The spiritual teachers of the Church, however, have always taught and stressed that written and formal prayers should not take the place of direct informal conversation with God in your own words.

On the contrary, the formal written prayers are usually recommended as a starting point to get you used to prayer and to get the ball rolling, to then lead you into more conversational prayer
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  #282  
Unread 4th June 2013, 09:15 PM
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-and that we should also pray to Mary and the Saints to ask them to pray for us as well-.
which is nether biblical and is in itself disobedience .we are not called to pray to the dead .
Wont ever let that doctrine slide on by like a sneaky sliding thing without challenge.

ok- back to the topic .

On the issue of the chaps wife having no sexual drive after having a baby .. Get over it .Welcome to the human race .it wont always be that way
And what has happened to "laying down our lives for one another " my wife is tired what with night feeds and changes and unsettled baby - so i love her
because i love her i lay down those sexual desires and do not add that pressure to her .
no man has EVER died - or even suffered slightly (other then self denial of flesh )from not having sexual release .

remember the scriptures any one ? .. LOVE - Does not seek its own .. die to yourSElF ...
got a lot of sexual energy have you ?
well burn it off by
hanging out the washing ,
vacuuming the floor,
cleaning the windows
,folding and putting away the clothes ,
taking baby after a feed and changing him/her at 3 am
doing some more washing
cooking the dinner
doing the dishes
making your wife breakfast
vacuuming the floor again
cleaning the bathroom
cleaning the toilet
..serve her in LOvE as if she were the lord Jesus

after all that - when she is ready,she will minister unto you until your little heart can take now more .
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The Lord is right-neither my opinion nor yours will change that.

Last edited by michaelmynameIs; 6th June 2013 at 12:39 AM. Reason: removed terminology that may be misconstrued to be in violation to CF rules
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  #283  
Unread 5th June 2013, 01:31 AM
Simon_Templar's Avatar
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Originally Posted by michaelmynameIs View Post
which is nether biblical nor truth and would be an act of rebellious unbelief to do.
communication with dead is in itself disobedience .
Wont ever let that doctrine slide on by like a sneaky sliding thing without challenge.
Lets see what Jesus said about the dead...

Luke 20: 37-38

37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”

my emphasis added of course.

Furthermore, in the Transfiguration Jesus himself spoke with Moses and Elijah. Now Elijah did not die physically, but he certainly passed on to the next world, and Moses DID die physically as we are told in the bible. So, if it is truly disobedient and sinful to speak with the saints who have gone before, then Jesus also is guilty of this.

The Saints are NOT DEAD. Again emphasizing the point since you seem to have ignored it the first time. Why do you think Jesus and the Apostles after him routinely referred to physical death of the body as merely "being asleep". They were not teaching soul sleep, but they were basing it on the point that physical death is not real death.

Real death is spiritual death and those who are alive through Christ ARE NOT DEAD. They have eternal life, right now.

Lets look at how the bible views the Saints and our relationship with them...

Hebrews 11-12

36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

This passage shows us that the Saints who went before us are waiting for us. They are surrounding us like a cloud of witnesses who urge us onward. They bear witness by their lives to the truth that we are striving for, and yet they are also still waiting for us to complete the journey so that we may all receive the promised reward together.

A little further on in Hebrews chapter 12 we find this interesting statement...
Hebrews 12:18-24

18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, c“If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

My emphasis added again. Here you see that the bible tells us that in the Church we are in the Heavenly Jerusalem, and here we are in the company of Angels, and of the Saints (the assembly of the firstborn and the spirits of the righteous made perfect) and of course, we are there with Jesus as well.

The idea that we are separated from the saints by physical death is simply not a biblical doctrine. It is in fact quite the opposite of what the bible teaches.

Further, we know that the Saints in heaven also pray and petition God because we are shown this directly in Revelation.

The New Testament has plenty of indications that we should ask other Christians to pray for us. It is the false doctrine that has arisen in modern times that separates the Saints in heaven from those on earth that creates the problem here.

But to further demonstrate the point, the psalms contain examples in which the angels are invoked and spoken to.

Psalm 103:20-22

Bless the Lord, O you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his word,
obeying the voice of his word!
21 Bless the Lord, all his hosts,
his ministers, who do his will!
22 Bless the Lord, all his works,
in all places of his dominion.
Bless the Lord, O my soul!

For the record, I was raised protestant, and I knew protestant doctrine very well. I used to argue against Catholics on these very points. Eventually God lead me to the point where I began to discover that my doctrines were not correct and that I was both misunderstanding, and also ignoring significant parts of scripture in order to support my doctrines.

I eventually became a Catholic precisely because it is a far more biblical teaching, and it is a far more complete way of understanding the bible.

So, its good to challenge doctrines and beliefs... I just hope you are as diligent in challenging your own as you are in challenging those of others.
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  #284  
Unread 5th June 2013, 02:57 AM
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No simontemplar - this is not a catholic thread and i don't think you should push that doctrine here
that CAN NOT be shown plainly in scripture .. by plainly i mean direct word for word scripture that states it ..not indirect ambiguity . nor should we derail this thread .

so back to the topic

On the issue of the chaps wife having no sexual drive after having a baby .. AND I assume struggling with desire to masturbate -

Get over it .Welcome to the human race .it wont always be that way
And what has happened to "laying down our lives for one another " my wife is tired what with night feeds and changes and unsettled baby - so i love her
because i love her i lay down those sexual desires and do not add that pressure to her .
no man has EVER died - or even suffered slightly (other then self denial of flesh )from not having sexual release .

remember the scriptures any one ? .. LOVE - Does not seek its own .. die to yourSElF ...
got a lot of sexual energy have you ?
well burn it off by
hanging out the washing ,
vacuuming the floor,
cleaning the windows
,folding and putting away the clothes ,
taking baby after a feed and changing him/her at 3 am
doing some more washing
cooking the dinner
doing the dishes
making your wife breakfast
vacuuming the floor again
cleaning the bathroom
cleaning the toilet
..serve her in LOvE as if she were the lord Jesus

after all that - when she is ready,she will minister unto you until your little heart can take no more .
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  #285  
Unread 5th June 2013, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by michaelmynameIs View Post
No simontemplar - this is not a catholic thread and i don't think you should push that doctrine here
that CAN NOT be shown plainly in scripture .. by plainly i mean direct word for word scripture that states it ..not indirect ambiguity . nor should we derail this thread .

so back to the topic
I'm not the one who brought it up. I responded to another user who brought it up out of the blue in a derogatory manner. I was not pushing the doctrine, I was explaining that derogatory comments made by others about the doctrine are both incorrect in that they don't accurately represent what Catholics actually believe, and incorrect in their assertion that the doctrine is unscriptural.

This isn't supposed to be an anti-catholic thread any more than it is supposed to be a "catholic thread".
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  #286  
Unread 5th June 2013, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Simon_Templar View Post
Lets see what Jesus said about the dead...

Luke 20: 37-38

37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”

my emphasis added of course.

Furthermore, in the Transfiguration Jesus himself spoke with Moses and Elijah. Now Elijah did not die physically, but he certainly passed on to the next world, and Moses DID die physically as we are told in the bible. So, if it is truly disobedient and sinful to speak with the saints who have gone before, then Jesus also is guilty of this.

The Saints are NOT DEAD. Again emphasizing the point since you seem to have ignored it the first time. Why do you think Jesus and the Apostles after him routinely referred to physical death of the body as merely "being asleep". They were not teaching soul sleep, but they were basing it on the point that physical death is not real death.

Real death is spiritual death and those who are alive through Christ ARE NOT DEAD. They have eternal life, right now.

Lets look at how the bible views the Saints and our relationship with them...

Hebrews 11-12

36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

This passage shows us that the Saints who went before us are waiting for us. They are surrounding us like a cloud of witnesses who urge us onward. They bear witness by their lives to the truth that we are striving for, and yet they are also still waiting for us to complete the journey so that we may all receive the promised reward together.

A little further on in Hebrews chapter 12 we find this interesting statement...
Hebrews 12:18-24

18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20 For they could not endure the order that was given, c“If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

My emphasis added again. Here you see that the bible tells us that in the Church we are in the Heavenly Jerusalem, and here we are in the company of Angels, and of the Saints (the assembly of the firstborn and the spirits of the righteous made perfect) and of course, we are there with Jesus as well.

The idea that we are separated from the saints by physical death is simply not a biblical doctrine. It is in fact quite the opposite of what the bible teaches.

Further, we know that the Saints in heaven also pray and petition God because we are shown this directly in Revelation.

The New Testament has plenty of indications that we should ask other Christians to pray for us. It is the false doctrine that has arisen in modern times that separates the Saints in heaven from those on earth that creates the problem here.

But to further demonstrate the point, the psalms contain examples in which the angels are invoked and spoken to.

Psalm 103:20-22

Bless the Lord, O you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his word,
obeying the voice of his word!
21 Bless the Lord, all his hosts,
his ministers, who do his will!
22 Bless the Lord, all his works,
in all places of his dominion.
Bless the Lord, O my soul!

For the record, I was raised protestant, and I knew protestant doctrine very well. I used to argue against Catholics on these very points. Eventually God lead me to the point where I began to discover that my doctrines were not correct and that I was both misunderstanding, and also ignoring significant parts of scripture in order to support my doctrines.

I eventually became a Catholic precisely because it is a far more biblical teaching, and it is a far more complete way of understanding the bible.

So, its good to challenge doctrines and beliefs... I just hope you are as diligent in challenging your own as you are in challenging those of others.
Okay, I'll challenge you then

If i have misunderstood something, especially christian, I welcome correction!

I understand your point that even dead in flesh we are all still alive in spirit in Christ, and you're basically asking another brother of Christ to pray for you but again, its not in scripture that that practice holds any legitimacy.
There is no direct verse in the Bible (like Philippians 4:6) that says talk to saints, angels, the dead, or the dead but spiritually alive. You're interpreting things that are not there.

Originally Posted by Simon_Templar View Post
Further, we know that the Saints in heaven also pray and petition God because we are shown this directly in Revelation.
(sincerely,) where? I would be interested in reading that.

Originally Posted by Simon_Templar View Post
I'm not the one who brought it up. I responded to another user who brought it up out of the blue in a derogatory manner. I was not pushing the doctrine, I was explaining that derogatory comments made by others about the doctrine are both incorrect in that they don't accurately represent what Catholics actually believe, and incorrect in their assertion that the doctrine is unscriptural.
Yeah, about that...
Originally Posted by RobZ View Post
What would be the right thing to pray in this situation? I feel confused. I only recently started getting in close and stronger relation with God and he helped me with my work situation and then I started realize how he answers my prayers. But I need advice on what would be the right thing to pray?

Last edited by wrexsti; 5th June 2013 at 02:01 PM.
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  #287  
Unread 5th June 2013, 03:24 PM
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  #288  
Unread 5th June 2013, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wrexsti View Post
Okay, I'll challenge you then

If i have misunderstood something, especially christian, I welcome correction!

I understand your point that even dead in flesh we are all still alive in spirit in Christ, and you're basically asking another brother of Christ to pray for you but again, its not in scripture that that practice holds any legitimacy.
There is no direct verse in the Bible (like Philippians 4:6) that says talk to saints, angels, the dead, or the dead but spiritually alive. You're interpreting things that are not there.

(sincerely,) where? I would be interested in reading that.


Yeah, about that...
#1 He asked direction about how to pray... he said nothing about praying to saints or Mary or angels. You interjected that, and in a derogatory manner.

#2 You demand that I prove my position but yet I'm the only one in this tangent who has actually offered scripture or explanation. All you and Michael have done is throw out random assertions (which are actually attacks bordering on insults) with ZERO support.

The fact is that your view is the innovation and if anyone should have to prove it, it should be you. Christians practiced prayer to the saints asking for their intercession from the early days of the Church, and the Jews practiced prayer to the angels at that time and before Christ.

In other words, this has always been practiced in Biblical religion and it is only in the last 500 years that some Christians have removed it because they have misunderstood the Bible.

#3 You demand a standard of proof that much of your own teachings and beliefs probably could not stand up to. In fact the standard can't even meet it's own requirements. Specifically you demand that a doctrine be explicitly stated in scripture, and not merely taught in concept or inferred from what is taught etc.

For example, it is easy to show that the bible advises asking other Christians to pray for us. It is also easy to show that the bible teaches the Saints and Angels in Heaven are part of the Church and are in fellowship with us. These two things taken together logically establish a basis for asking Saints and Angels to intercede for us. Yet that is not good enough for you because you demand specifically a verse that says "speak to angels" or "speak to dead saints".

This demand in itself is illogical and circular because it is predicated upon the position you have already accepted that there IS a substantive separation between the saints in heaven and the saints on earth. The bible does not teach that. It teaches the opposite of that. As a result we should not expect the bible to speak as though that idea were true.

The real irony is that the idea of scripture as the sole authority, is itself not scriptural. This doctrine is the foundation stone of Protestantism, and yet it is taught no where in the bible. Your standard of demanding that something must be directly taught in scripture is self defeating because that idea itself is never taught in scripture.

#4 Earlier in this post I cited the fact that the ancient Jews prayed to angels. I will post an example of such a Jewish prayer to the angels, but first I will post the scriptures from Revelation which refer to the prayers of the saints because the two things align closely as you will see.

Revelation 6:9
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given ea white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Here you see the souls of the martyrs (saints in heaven) crying out to God and asking him to avenge them. The saints are petitioning God. (ie praying)

Revelation 8:3-4
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, 4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

Here we see two things of note. First the angels are offering up the prayers of the saints as an incense offering in the heavenly temple. Second, they are offering up the prayers of ALL the saints. This includes the saints in heaven.

Now, keeping the role of the angels in that last passage in mind, here is a traditional Jewish prayer to the angels.

Usherers of mercy, usher in our [plea for] mercy, before the Master of mercy, You who cause prayer to be heard, may you cause our prayer to be heard before the Hearer of prayer, You who cause our outcry to be heard, may you cause our outcry to be heard, before the Hearer of outcry, You who usher in tears, may you usher in our tears, before the King Who finds favor through tears. Exert yourselves and multiply supplication and petition before the King, God, exalted and most high, etc

You can see that this particular Jewish prayer to the angels mirrors almost exactly what Revelation describes the Angels doing with the prayers of the saints in heaven.
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Unread 6th June 2013, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Simon_Templar View Post
#2 You demand that I prove my position but yet I'm the only one in this tangent who has actually offered scripture or explanation...............
sorry , you introduced the doctrine by implying in your advice to some one who asked help about how to pray that one should "also pray to dead folk" -(paraphrased).
and in your the long ambiguity have not offered a single clear scripture nor can you do so as it does not exist - accept it and move on- start a new thread is you must - but here
it is off topic .

btw - more correct advice would be to direct the poster to "the lords prayer " which is a perfect template for ALL prayer .
And there is a clear distinct unambiguous scriptural reference to it . (the kind of reference I require as foundation before i accept or even consider any doctrine )
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Unread 6th June 2013, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Lik3 View Post
This is a subject that I don't like to share, but if I wish to ovecome my sins, I need to. It has been said that confession is good for the soul, but repentance is even better in my opinion. I repented yet I still make bad choices. Is it because I am weak or getting something out of it? Or is it not a sin and I am over exaggerating things?
I think 99% people in this world have masturbated...
even baby girls sometimes move their bodies rhythmically, almost violently, appearing to experience orgasm...

Well, Bible says, God hates rape, even if you do it to yourself...
But, does masturbate mean rape?
What the purpose of masturbation and what make it different with rape?
Both have relation with orgasm... but let's see the purpose behind these things...

Rape: a sexual assault, take the purity (unmarried victims). the rapist is the only one who gets advantages.. Gives bad impacts to victim... It definitely destroys the victim, both mental and physic.. It's crime.. It robs victim's life = sin..

Masturbation: the person who masturbates has good reasons about it. besides desires, it's good for our health... No victims in doing this.. except you do it by using others who won't to..

For unmarried women, it's better to keep our purity,
you can stimulate the clitoris...
I think fingering and put your hand in, is not worth it.. may lose the purity...

I guess as long it's good for the people who do it, I think it's fine...
the frequency itself is effected by our ages and conditions..
Remember that you're not the only one...

Hope it will help


Originally Posted by Rhamiel View Post
i believe it is a sin
God made human sexuality for procreation and to form a bond between husband and wife, to be made one flesh as it says in the Bible
masterbation is not procreative and it is not creating an emotional bond between husband and wife
so one it goes agianst what human sexuality was made for
also it focuses the mind on lust

do not feel alone, Jesus is with us always
to be honest, I struggle with this sin as well...
we live in a very very sexual culture so it is hard to avoid these kinda things
thank you for making this thread
God bless you
If you knew, masturbation can also be done with partner... (mutual masturbation) like husband to a pregnant wife, it is often considered a form of safer sex and birth control... a non-penetrative sex...
So yeah, it can happen between husband and wife too.. SO it's a sin then? What do you think...
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Last edited by justbeyourbestself; 6th June 2013 at 01:36 AM.
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