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  #1  
Old 12th January 2012, 08:35 PM
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Christians and the Economy

Has anyone read this book, Christians and the Economy?

Here is a review of it I just read, it sounds very interesting:

Somewhere Hilaire Belloc says that an economic system based on usury must always by its nature collapse.

That is what we are seeing on a worldwide scale now. The European and American governments are acting as if loan restructurings and currency manipulations will solve the problem, that “austerity measures” will save Greece and Italy and even the United States—but the spiral has begun and nothing can stop it. The system must by its nature break down because the system, by its nature, is opposed to nature. Usury is contrary to reality. .

cont.
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  #2  
Old 12th January 2012, 11:44 PM
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I haven't read it but it sounds interesting. Given the absurd political climate my country is going through with this staunch, hot and heavy anti-government anti-federalist, Tea Party radicalism, maybe Mitt Romney and his cronies need to read the book!
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Old 13th January 2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1 View Post
I haven't read it but it sounds interesting. Given the absurd political climate my country is going through with this staunch, hot and heavy anti-government anti-federalist, Tea Party radicalism, maybe Mitt Romney and his cronies need to read the book!
Did you see over at TAW where a poster pointed out that Romney is associated with Monsanto?
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  #4  
Old 13th January 2012, 01:09 PM
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The ag biotech company? I don't know much about them really. Boswell is the crooked company with tons of power in Central California...

Originally Posted by MKJ View Post
Did you see over at TAW where a poster pointed out that Romney is associated with Monsanto?
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Old 15th January 2012, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MKJ View Post
Has anyone read this book, Christians and the Economy?

Here is a review of it I just read, it sounds very interesting:

Somewhere Hilaire Belloc says that an economic system based on usury must always by its nature collapse.

That is what we are seeing on a worldwide scale now. The European and American governments are acting as if loan restructurings and currency manipulations will solve the problem, that “austerity measures” will save Greece and Italy and even the United States—but the spiral has begun and nothing can stop it. The system must by its nature break down because the system, by its nature, is opposed to nature. Usury is contrary to reality. .

cont.
When I learned about economics in college, I'd hear things like the above and Keyesian economics. None of it seemed like common sense so I thought if the experts say it is possible, then it must be me who is at fault. But then I read Belloc's quote and others' quotes who debunk Keyesian policies and I realize no, it is not me ~ it is THEM. If it doesn't make sense then it is because it is a fishy way of doing economics.
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Old 19th January 2012, 04:09 PM
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I haven't read the particular book that MKJ talks about in the first post, but I have read and pondered quite a bit on what the Christian stance towards economic policy should be. To me it seems obvious that the world's current economic system is evil in every sense: sinful from a Christian perspective, destructive of human rights from a humanist perspective, and illogical even by its own standards. The central notion that if we all act based on "rational self interest", as it's often called, is destructive of any sond basis of human living and social organization, Christian or otherwise.

One book that I have read, which discusses these principles, is Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered, by E. F. Schumacher. I wrote about it only my blog here:

Day 24: A book that you wish more people would’ve read « The Blog that was Thursday
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Old 19th January 2012, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexBP View Post
I haven't read the particular book that MKJ talks about in the first post, but I have read and pondered quite a bit on what the Christian stance towards economic policy should be. To me it seems obvious that the world's current economic system is evil in every sense: sinful from a Christian perspective, destructive of human rights from a humanist perspective, and illogical even by its own standards. The central notion that if we all act based on "rational self interest", as it's often called, is destructive of any sond basis of human living and social organization, Christian or otherwise.

One book that I have read, which discusses these principles, is Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered, by E. F. Schumacher. I wrote about it only my blog here:

Day 24: A book that you wish more people would’ve read « The Blog that was Thursday
I think I will have a look at that - several people have mentioned it to me and I know my library has it.

One of the problems with thinking seriously about Christianity and economics is that I have to seriously consider whether I have the cash to buy books I can't borrow.
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Old 24th January 2012, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MKJ View Post
Somewhere Hilaire Belloc says that an economic system based on usury must always by its nature collapse.


Belloc, along with G.K.Chesteron believed in Distributive Economics (Distributisim) which was loosely based upon two Papal encylicals from two long dead Pontiffs.

Unfortunately its never taken traction because the best example of it on a micro-scale, the Guild of St Dominic and St Joseph only lasted 80 years. I believe there was an obituary in The Times when it collapsed in 1992. Which ironically was not long after the collapse of communism/socialism.

Originally Posted by MKJ View Post
That is what we are seeing on a worldwide scale now. The European and American governments are acting as if loan restructurings and currency manipulations will solve the problem, that “austerity measures” will save Greece and Italy and even the United States—but the spiral has begun and nothing can stop it. The system must by its nature break down because the system, by its nature, is opposed to nature
The austerity measures you are talking about are nothing more than a recognition that those undertaking them have been living beyond their means and now have to take measures to correct this.

It's Greed, not usury thats the problem afoot here. The system is not contrary to nature, its a by-product of it.
Originally Posted by MKJ View Post
Usury is contrary to reality.
Usury is reality, in many forms. If we consider the Islamic rejection of Usury in favour of Sharia based 'banking', where the contract between the parties is drawn firmly in favour of the person providing the cash.

As a lawyer, I see many instances where contracts favour one party or another with very different financial consequences for each.
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Old 24th January 2012, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Targlish View Post


Belloc, along with G.K.Chesteron believed in Distributive Economics (Distributisim) which was loosely based upon two Papal encylicals from two long dead Pontiffs.

Unfortunately its never taken traction because the best example of it on a micro-scale, the Guild of St Dominic and St Joseph only lasted 80 years. I believe there was an obituary in The Times when it collapsed in 1992. Which ironically was not long after the collapse of communism/socialism.

The austerity measures you are talking about are nothing more than a recognition that those undertaking them have been living beyond their means and now have to take measures to correct this.

It's Greed, not usury thats the problem afoot here. The system is not contrary to nature, its a by-product of it.


Usury is reality, in many forms. If we consider the Islamic rejection of Usury in favour of Sharia based 'banking', where the contract between the parties is drawn firmly in favour of the person providing the cash.

As a lawyer, I see many instances where contracts favour one party or another with very different financial consequences for each.
Since I didn't actually write the article you quoted, it isn't really the case that I am saying anything.

However, I am not sure why you are talking about an Islamic rejection of usury - it was also rejected by Christians up until Calvin decided it was ok after all.

Do you understand why usury was not allowed for 1500 years in Christianity.

It also doesn't sound like you know much about modern Distributist movements.
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Old 24th January 2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by MKJ View Post
It also doesn't sound like you know much about modern Distributist movements.
I know they are in the minority.

Since I have a double degree in Commerce and Law, pretty sure I understand the economic issues, my churchmanship ensures I also understand the social issues.

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