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  #1  
Old 12th January 2012, 12:37 PM
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Michael the Archangel “one who is God.”

For some reason, the understanding of Christ pre-incarnate is very controversial, as people get confused with the "Title" which refers to Jesus. Now, Jesus is NOT a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus is Eternal. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be.

Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people, prior to the incarnation.

Michael is just another "Title" to refer to Jesus just as Lamb and Lion is. Michael is not a created Angel. Michael the Archangel is only a name or title, but it shows us that Christ has always been there with the Father implementing the plan of salvation.

I got some good insight from a few friends on this issue, first here is post from Amo...
'This belief did not originate with the SDA church. Nor are they the only ones who make this connection.

The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in #Re 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn’s BD).
John A. Lees (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

ARCHANGEL

This world is only twice used in the Bible, #1Th 4:16 Jude 1:9. In this last passage it is applied to Michael, who, in #Da 10:13,21 12:1, is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in #Re 12:7-9 as the leader of an angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant. ( American Tract Society Bible Dictionary)

The Rabbinical traditions about Michael are very numerous. They oppose him constantly to Sammael, the accuser and enemy of Israel, as disputing for the soul of Moses; as bringing the ram the substitute for Isaac, which Sammael sought to keep back, etc., etc.: they give him the title of the "great high- priest in heaven," as well as that of the "great prince and conqueror;" and finally lay it down that "wherever Michael is said to have appeared, there the glory of the Shechinah is intended." It is clear that the sounder among them, in making such use of the name, intended to personify the Divine Power, and typify the Messiah (see Schoettgen, Hor. Hebr. i. 1079, 1119, ii. 8, 15, ed. Dresd. 1742).( Smiths Revised Bible Dictionary)'

and as to evidence of Michael the Prince creating the universe as Christ the Creator, here are some verses that make the connection....

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Dan 9:25 (KJV)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: Dan 12:1 (KJV)

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:14-15 (KJV)

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 (KJV)
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  #2  
Old 12th January 2012, 12:47 PM
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and from my friend GC at Maritime....
'The word "Michael" occurs but twice in the New Testament, once each in Jude and Revelation. Also, the word "archangel" occurs but twice in the entire Bible. However, the words "Michael" and "archangel" are clearly tied in Jude.

The word "archangel" is the word which throws people off most. The fact that "angel" is usually considered a created being is the tricky part. We forget the real meaning of "angel." The word means "messenger of God." Here is the full definition of "angel" from the Greek word, according to my Strong's Concordance:

angelos, n. angel, messenger; this can refer to a human messenger, such as John the Baptist, or messengers sent by John the Baptist or Jesus, or to the supernatural class of being that serves God: the angel:-- angel [96], angels [80], messenger [4], messengers [3], angel's [2]

Now I would ask two questions: 1) Was Jesus a human? and 2) Was Jesus a messenger, sent by God? My answers to both of these are in the affirmative. So, by this definition, one could even have used the term "angel" for Jesus. However, there is nothing in the definition of "angel" which implies that it must be a created being! (Here is where our traditional concepts can throw us off the track of truth.)

Now, apart from that little side-trip, I will not hereafter attempt to call Jesus an angel, for it is to be noted that the Bible does not try to confuse us by doing this. The Bible writers were careful to use the term for beings other than God Himself, unlike the term "son of man" which can be applied to Jesus, to Ezekiel, or to any number of men.

However, the term "archangel" is not the same Greek word as "angel." As previously noted, it is used but twice. The definition in the concordance is not helpful, saying that the word means "archangel" with no additional information. From that, I might safely conclude that the word is not fully understood. When I find that word in the dictionary, it says archangel means "an angel of the highest order," and that the prefix "arch-" means "chief" or "principal," which to me still leave questions.

It is said that "archangel" means "over all the angels." If you accept this, then the being that is "over" the angels may or may not be an angel himself--simply their superior.

Now, laying the definitions themselves aside, let's look at the identity of Michael. On this point, we can be very clear. There can be no mistake as to who Michael is.

Michael is mentioned in Daniel 10:13. "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: bu, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes [marginal note: Or, the first], came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

In Daniel 12:1, Michael is further identified: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people...and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

So, Michael is "the great prince" who stands "for the children of thy people." Who is this prince? Just three chapters earlier, we read this: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks..."

So, here we have a clear reference to "THE Prince." We know who the Messiah is--that is Jesus. We also know that "prince" means the son of a king. I don't see how the angels (the created messengers of heaven) would be called by this term, do you? So to me, it is quite clear.

Now, if you accept that "archangel" means "over the angels," how many would fit this description? Certainly, Jesus would fit. But we also have God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Depending now on whether or not an angel could also fill this position, perhaps you would have Gabriel (or even other commanding angels). So depending on the definitions (is God "one" or "three"; does Gabriel count), each one may interpret the number of archangels differently.

In conclusion:

1. Messiah is "the Prince."
2. Archangel means "over the angels" or "commander of the angels."
3. Jesus is the Messiah.
4. Jesus, as God, is over the angels (archangel).
5. Jesus pre-existed His earthly existence (John 1:1-14).
6. Jesus did not create Himself (this would be impossible)!
7. Jesus created everything; He is the Creator (Col. 1:14-16).'
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Old 12th January 2012, 12:49 PM
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So lets take a closer look, lets go see what scripture shows us in the phrase 'angel of the LORD' in the story of Moses and the burning bush

Exodus 3:2
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.


Now look at the following verses and who is identified as being in the bush?

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
Exo 3:6 Moreover he said,*I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Notice that the 'angel of the LORD' is really none other than God Himself and we have more...

Acts 7:29-31
King James Version (KJV)
29Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.
30And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
31When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the LORD came unto him,

Then we have the following exchange...

Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

and who but Christ says this...

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Jesus Christ had just identified Himself as the One who is the God of the Old Testament patriarchs, who was present in the burning bush speaking to Moses and the Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant as seen in what happens.

John 8:57-59
King James Version (KJV)
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
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Old 12th January 2012, 12:53 PM
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So we see that Jesus is the 'Angel of the Lord' and clearly is the great I AM, so now lets look at Michael the Archangel.

Now lets look in the verse in Jude.

(Jude 1:9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

In verse 8 Jude denounced false prophets who crept into the church, claiming to be messengers of Christ, which he tells us,“despise dominions.” That is to say, they despise the fact that God is God, despise and refuse to bow to Christ the Lord. It appears he is talking about the Gnostic sects who are sowing confusion even at this time about the diety of Christ.

Jude then goes on in verse 9 to show Christ pre-incarnate who as Michael shows up in the Bible in direct conflict with Satan.

But there is more...lets look at Zechariah 3.

(Zechariah 3:1-5) And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.(2) And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?(3) Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.(4) And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.(5) And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Here, he stands before the Lord God conscious of his guilt and sin. Joshua is here said to be “standing before the Angel of the Lord”(v. 1). In verse 3 we read, “Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the Lord.”— In verse 5 Zechariah says,“and the Angel of the Lord stood by.”

The Angel of the Lord standing by is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Now, he is not one of the angelic hosts that he created. He is called “the Angel of the Lord,” because he is Jehovah’s Messenger, the Angel of the covenant.

The One who is called,“the Angel of the Lord” in verse 1, is Jehovah himself. We know that because he is called,“the Lord”(Jehovah) in verse 2. This Man who is God, the Angel of the Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, is our almighty Advocate and effectual Intercessor (Heb. 7:24-27; 1 John 2:1-2).

Notice that again he says the same words as Christ "And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan"

Joshua said nothing. Joshua did nothing. He stood in silence before the Angel of the Lord; and the Lord pleaded his cause, and he definitely shows the Angel as “one who is God”.(Micah 7:8-9, 18-20).

In both Jude 9 and Zech 3:1-2 it is Jesus, the *angel of the LORD* who is also Michael the archangel, contending with Satan for both Moses and Joshua.

If you look carefully you see that Jude is quoting from Zechariah 3:2. "And the Lord said to Satan,'the Lord rebuke you".
Zechariah and Jude have both the Lord and Michael the archangel say the exact same thing, "the lord rebuke you".. This identifies both beings for us...
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Old 12th January 2012, 12:54 PM
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Now Daniel was told by the angel Gabriel,“The angel prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief angels, came to help me… Now I have to go back and fight the guardian angel of Persia. After that the guardian angel of Greece will appear. There is no one to help me except Michael, Israel’s guardian angel. He is responsible for helping and defending me.” Daniel 10:13,20; 11:1

Later Daniel refers to him as “the great prince” Daniel 12:1 and as we see in Jude he is called “the archangel” when he disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. It is the voice of the archangel, this title given to Michael, who is associated with the raising of the dead at the 2nd coming.“There will be the shout of command, the archangel’s voice, the sound of God’s trumpet, and the Lord himself will come down from heaven. Those who have died believing in Christ will rise to life first…” 1 Thessalonians 4:16

The relationship between the resurrection and Michael is reinforced in Daniel when,“the great angel Michael, who guards your people, will appear…many of those who have already died will live again…” Daniel 12:1,2

But scripture tells us that it is Christ's voice that will raise the dead.“The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life…the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and come out of their graves…” John 5:25,28,29

Again we see the connection as to who is Michael the Archangel “one who is God.”

In Revelation 12, Michael is shown as the leader of the angels in the fight against Satan, and then later in Revelation 19, it says it is Jesus who leads the charge as “The armies of heaven followed him.”

The work described in Revelation 12:7-9 is the work of Christ himself, and look at this...

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

and compare who fights with the dragon...

(Revelation 12:7-9)
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,(8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then in the Old Testament you can find where God is referred to as an angel. It was “the angel of the LORD” that helped Hagar in the desert, but yet she would say,“Have I really seen God and lived to tell about it?” Genesis 16:7,13

It was “the LORD’s angel” who came to Gideon, but during the conversation it was “the LORD” who answered Gideon, and Gideon asked,“Give me some proof that you are really the LORD.” Judges 6:11,16,17.

Finally, who led the Israelites through the desert?“My angel will go ahead of you and take you into the land of the Amorites…”(Exodus 23:23) But yet Paul says that the One who led the Israelites through the desert was none other than Jesus!“They drank from the spiritual rock that went with them; and that rock was Christ himself.”(1 Corinthians 10:4)

Now Scripture is clear, that there is only one God, who is, who was, and who is to come as we see in the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5
The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Now, God does not allow worship to anyone but Him.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Twice in Revelation, John was forbidden to fall at the feet of the angel (Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22: 8-9).
However, when Joshua met the angelic general (Joshua 5:3-15), he was not forbidden from performing this act of worship. Instead, just like the encounter of Moses with God at the burning bush, Joshua was told to take off his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. This leader of the angels was God.

Jesus Christ is the preeminent Angel of the Lord, the Chief Messenger of God, and is called “the angel of his presence”(Isa. 63:9), and the Angel of the covenant (Mal. 3:1). But Jesus is not a created Angel, but the eternal “angel of his presence,” who is himself our God.
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Old 12th January 2012, 12:58 PM
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Now lets look at the Second Coming, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it states that at the second coming the Lord shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel. If he shouts with a voice it must be his voice. The Lord is the Archangel. Furthermore, this voice raises the dead and only God can raise the dead.

Paul frequently refers to Jesus as `Lord' in 1 Corinthians in such a way as to identify him as, or equate him with, the Lord Jehovah of the Old Testament.... Paul says that Christians hope to be found `blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ '(1:8; see also 5:5), whereas the Old Testament spoke of that judgment day as the day of Jehovah (e.g., Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31).... Paul's language clearly refers to Jesus as if he were Jehovah.

Thus Jehovah shows Himself in the position as leader of the angelic host at the day of judgement, or second coming the Lord. It all comes together, Michael represents the pre-existent Jesus in angelic form, the Lord of the Host, before He came down, and as the One who gave Himself for salvation after sin came in, He also in scripture reveals Himself as the Messiah or Christ, as seen in the Second Coming...

Scripture clearly shows that Christ is God, the great I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah...but he also was the Angel of the Host, Michael the Arch Angel and there is no conflict here. This is his title when he threw out Satan and when he come to take the saints and put Satan away forever. Scripture, if you look closely, clearly reveals this and shows us who he is....
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With all due respect, I'd have to disagree with you, reddogs. While it's true that an archangel is a much stronger and higher being than your regular angel, he is still an angel. In the Bible, an angel is being referred to as the messenger of God, His creation. Though the term is used to refer to a carrier of God's messages, the term is also used to separate a specific race of spiritual entities from other creation and God. The Bible separates angels from God, thus Jesus cannot be an angel. Prior to his resurrection, Jesus had made a claim in the public that he is essentially God, an act which had caused anger amongst Jews. God is not something you can become of, as God told us that he forever existed, exists, and will continue to exist. I'd like to remind you of the fact that an angel is the messenger of the Lord. An angel is always seen carrying a message from God to a specific chosen individual. I believe that an archangel, despite his power and high status, is still a messenger of the Lord. What I mean by that is that an archangel could do much more than an angel as the messenger of God. While an angel could only hear and send a message from God, an archangel could allow an individual to speak with God in a direct manner. In other words, a regular angel is God's e-mail/Mailman, where as an archangel is His phone/webcam. When a person speaks/performs an act through his phone/webcam, does that mean he's speaking/performing to his owned device itself? The answer would be "no." Each time an archangel allows a direct communication between God and men, men's worship for God is transferred to God through His phone/webcam. An archangel, therefore, cannot refer to former/current position of Jesus.

Last edited by blackstrawberry; 13th January 2012 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 13th January 2012, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by blackstrawberry View Post
With all due respect, I'd have to disagree with you, reddogs. While it's true that an archangel is a much stronger and higher being than your regular angel, he is still an angel. In the Bible, an angel is being referred to as the messenger of God, His creation. Though the term is used to refer to a carrier of God's messages, the term is also used to separate a specific race of spiritual entities from other creation and God. The Bible separates angels from God, thus Jesus cannot be an angel. Prior to his resurrection, Jesus had made a claim in the public that he is essentially God, an act which had caused anger amongst Jews. God is not something you can become of, as God told us that he forever existed, exists, and will continue to exist. I'd like to remind you of the fact that an angel is the messenger of the Lord. An angel is always seen carrying a message from God to a specific chosen individual. I believe that an archangel, despite his power and high status, is still a messenger of the Lord. What I mean by that is that an archangel could do much more than an angel as the messenger of God. While an angel could only hear and send a message from God, an archangel could allow an individual to speak with God in a direct manner. In other words, a regular angel is God's e-mail/Mailman, where as an archangel is His phone/webcam. When a person speaks/performs an act through his phone/webcam, does that mean he's speaking/performing to his owned device itself? The answer would be "no." Each time an archangel allows a direct communication between God and men, men's worship for God is transferred to God through His phone/webcam. An archangel, therefore, cannot refer to former/current position of Jesus.
Thank you for your response. I would normally say yes a archangel is just another angel with responsibilities above the other angels, but in this case after studying it, what the scripture teaches is clear, Micheal is Christ before he became flesh.

God Bless my brother, and continue following after Gods truth..
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Old 18th January 2012, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by reddogs View Post
Thank you for your response. I would normally say yes a archangel is just another angel with responsibilities above the other angels, but in this case after studying it, what the scripture teaches is clear, Micheal is Christ before he became flesh.

God Bless my brother, and continue following after Gods truth..
could you provide a text for 'before he became flesh', I dont wanna read that whole thread...
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Old 21st January 2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnMarsten View Post
could you provide a text for 'before he became flesh', I dont wanna read that whole thread...
Wouldn't reading the first 5 posts, with their appropriate scriptures and explanations be better?
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