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Mariology & Hagiography The forum to discuss the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus as well as the theology involving Saints.

View Poll Results: How important is venerating (and praying to) the saints?
It's essential to our faith! 22 29.73%
Quite important, but understandable if some disagree. 6 8.11%
It couldn't hurt. 6 8.11%
I'm undecided, or don't really care. 3 4.05%
Faith is personal, no point arguing about it. 1 1.35%
The bible doesn't actually support it, so not very. 15 20.27%
It's tantamount to idolatry! 21 28.38%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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  #71  
Old 18th January 2012, 01:01 AM
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Howdy back at cha 1Mind1Spirit

Yeah, I was thinking the same, though I gotta look at it cloer

No one come to the Father but by me

Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Theres that in that day, I in you thing going on, which he says, I say NOT unto you that I will pray the Father for you

Then ofcourse the asking in His name, then here ...

Ephes 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Then the acknowledgement of the whole family (of two)

Ephes 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

But still

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
 

So he at least specified, theres no getting around that

Sorry, the verse has been so overquoted here But I am trying to catch something else...But cant, Im feeling strangely tired (for me anyway) but maybe if I hit the sheets and wake up I'll be "feeling it"

I need to catch me some zzzzz's.

So goodnight, God bless you, and catch you later gater
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  #72  
Old 18th January 2012, 01:01 AM
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I voted "essential to our faith" since at its core it is really an affirmation of the unity of the Church and the life of those who are in Christ.
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  #73  
Old 18th January 2012, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Piercing the Darkness View Post
I think he asked a very valid question. If I may ask, are you refusing to answer him or do you not have answers for his questions? I have found that when comparing the doctrines, beliefs and religious practices taught in Catholicism against what is written in the Scriptures firmly and clearly validates his inquiries.
The scriptures say they will pick up serpents and can drink poison not be hurt (Mark 16). I used to live not far from people who did just that because of this one verse.

Now I could argue with them about the meaning of that verse, but it is quite obvious to me that we have a fundamental disagreement about what that verse means. And the people doing this today are so adamant that I am wrong and willing to risk death to "prove" Jesus wants them to do this. My just telling them there are other ways to look at this verse is unlikely to go much beyond agreeing to disagree. Yes it does, no it does not. Fruitless in understanding the other's position.

If you really insist on going verse by verse to hear me say that it does not prevent us from asking (pray to) the Saints in Heaven to pray for us, I guess we could do that but what will we accomplish?

To me the fact the early Christians are doing just that as part of their regular worship (as Catholics do today), combined with their leaders at the same time speaking out against the pagan practices regarding the dead (using those same verses as "scriptural" proof) does not support an understanding of those verses which would make intercessory prayer wrong. If it did they would not have been allowing it. These are people praying (asking) to martyrs for help, people that were taught by Apostles and undoubtedly doing this before the last one left them. And that is enough for me, I do not require scripture to spell it out for me (and I accept the Trinity doctrine without having it spelled out in scripture).

Look I get that a lot of Christians do not do this and believe OT scriptures prevent it. We just do not agree on what those scriptures forbid and certainly do not agree that these practices obvious in the early Church represent a corruption of teaching.
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  #74  
Old 18th January 2012, 12:20 PM
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Exodus 20:7
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Matthew 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
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  #75  
Old 18th January 2012, 01:06 PM
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Ok, just letting you's know I keep spinning this around, Jesus words over and over again and I am so learning something here by doing just that, these things are so AFFIRMING! I mean, I already knew it but somehow looking into it again and reestablishing the same by tying the same into other scripture is really awesome! My faith just shot through the roof in otherwords, He so rocks!

Ok, again....

No one come to the Father but by me

Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Theres that in that day, I in you which he says, I say NOT unto you that I will pray the Father for you

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Then ofcourse the asking in His name, then here ...

Ephes 3:14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

But (Again) he says this...

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

The same in repects to himself

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Ok... This is just way too awesome!

... they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

No wonder! That your JOY may be made FULL, he says hitherto (before he ascended) that ye have asked NOTHING in my name, so he says ASK that your JOY might actually be FULL.

Ever know something, but it just becomes reaffirmed? And its as if you heard it for the very first time? Thats what just happened in me

The more you think about it the more it sinks into your ears and eventually renews you again.

How awesome is He? Just too awesome, too awesome!
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  #76  
Old 18th January 2012, 01:17 PM
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No one come to the Father but by me
That alone is good reason!
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  #77  
Old 18th January 2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Otto View Post
That alone is good reason!
I never change do I?
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  #78  
Old 19th January 2012, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Fireinfolding View Post
Ok, just letting you's know I keep spinning this around, Jesus words over and over again and I am so learning something here by doing just that, these things are so AFFIRMING! I mean, I already knew it but somehow looking into it again and reestablishing the same by tying the same into other scripture is really awesome! My faith just shot through the roof in otherwords, He so rocks!

Ok, again....

No one come to the Father but by me

Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Theres that in that day, I in you which he says, I say NOT unto you that I will pray the Father for you

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Then ofcourse the asking in His name, then here ...

Ephes 3:14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

But (Again) he says this...

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

The same in repects to himself

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Ok... This is just way too awesome!

... they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

No wonder! That your JOY may be made FULL, he says hitherto (before he ascended) that ye have asked NOTHING in my name, so he says ASK that your JOY might actually be FULL.

Ever know something, but it just becomes reaffirmed? And its as if you heard it for the very first time? Thats what just happened in me

The more you think about it the more it sinks into your ears and eventually renews you again.

How awesome is He? Just too awesome, too awesome!
Right on Sis
There's always a danger when haggling with unbelievers
But praise the Lord, To those who have, more will be given.
God bless yuh
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  #79  
Old 17th February 2012, 06:15 PM
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The Communion of the Saints is essential to Christian faith. The Communion of the Saints includes the belief that we can pray to the Saints. Indeed, it is a good and holy thing to do. We have a written record of belief in the intercession of the saints going back all the way to even 80 AD which proves that it is an ancient Christian belief. You can read more here:

The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers

Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers
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"We've had enough of exhortations to be silent! Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues. I see that the world is rotten because of silence." - Saint Catherine of Siena

"Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
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"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself." -- Saint Augustine of Hippo

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  #80  
Old 18th February 2012, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Ave Maria View Post
The Communion of the Saints is essential to Christian faith. The Communion of the Saints includes the belief that we can pray to the Saints. Indeed, it is a good and holy thing to do. We have a written record of belief in the intercession of the saints going back all the way to even 80 AD which proves that it is an ancient Christian belief. You can read more here:

The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers

Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers
Let's say for a minute that it is an "ancient Christian belief". Does that mean that everything Christians believe is Biblical?

Are we to get our doctrine from scripture or from what other people believe?
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