| Mariology & Hagiography The forum to discuss the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus as well as the theology involving Saints. |
|
View Poll Results: How important is venerating (and praying to) the saints? | |
It's essential to our faith!
|     | 22 | 29.73% | |
Quite important, but understandable if some disagree.
|    | 6 | 8.11% | |
It couldn't hurt.
|    | 6 | 8.11% | |
I'm undecided, or don't really care.
|    | 3 | 4.05% | |
Faith is personal, no point arguing about it.
|    | 1 | 1.35% | |
The bible doesn't actually support it, so not very.
|    | 15 | 20.27% | |
It's tantamount to idolatry!
| | 21 | 28.38% |
 | | 
18th January 2012, 01:01 AM
|  | Take joy my King, My God be most blessed!
    
 | | Join Date: 17th December 2006 Location: Mount Sion
Posts: 21,905
Blessings: 43,246,141
Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,804) | | Howdy back at cha 1Mind1Spirit
Yeah, I was thinking the same, though I gotta look at it cloer
No one come to the Father but by me
Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Theres that in that day, I in you thing going on, which he says, I say NOT unto you that I will pray the Father for you
Then ofcourse the asking in His name, then here ...
Ephes 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Then the acknowledgement of the whole family (of two)
Ephes 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
But still
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
So he at least specified, theres no getting around that
Sorry, the verse has been so overquoted here  But I am trying to catch something else...But cant, Im feeling strangely tired (for me anyway) but maybe if I hit the sheets and wake up I'll be "feeling it"
I need to catch me some zzzzz's.
So goodnight, God bless you, and catch you later gater
__________________
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. |
18th January 2012, 01:01 AM
| | Newbie
   
| | Join Date: 22nd April 2011
Posts: 5,722
Blessings: 1,940,144
Reps: 468,762,776,506,555,392 (power: 0) | | | I voted "essential to our faith" since at its core it is really an affirmation of the unity of the Church and the life of those who are in Christ. |
18th January 2012, 06:23 AM
|  | Senior Veteran
53  
| | Join Date: 8th August 2004 Location: Left coast
Posts: 5,666
Blessings: 26,094,460 My Mood 
Reps: 118,588,819,268,106,832 (power: 118,588,819,268,120) | | Originally Posted by Piercing the Darkness  I think he asked a very valid question. If I may ask, are you refusing to answer him or do you not have answers for his questions? I have found that when comparing the doctrines, beliefs and religious practices taught in Catholicism against what is written in the Scriptures firmly and clearly validates his inquiries.
The scriptures say they will pick up serpents and can drink poison not be hurt (Mark 16). I used to live not far from people who did just that because of this one verse.
Now I could argue with them about the meaning of that verse, but it is quite obvious to me that we have a fundamental disagreement about what that verse means. And the people doing this today are so adamant that I am wrong and willing to risk death to "prove" Jesus wants them to do this. My just telling them there are other ways to look at this verse is unlikely to go much beyond agreeing to disagree. Yes it does, no it does not. Fruitless in understanding the other's position.
If you really insist on going verse by verse to hear me say that it does not prevent us from asking (pray to) the Saints in Heaven to pray for us, I guess we could do that but what will we accomplish?
To me the fact the early Christians are doing just that as part of their regular worship (as Catholics do today), combined with their leaders at the same time speaking out against the pagan practices regarding the dead (using those same verses as "scriptural" proof) does not support an understanding of those verses which would make intercessory prayer wrong. If it did they would not have been allowing it. These are people praying (asking) to martyrs for help, people that were taught by Apostles and undoubtedly doing this before the last one left them. And that is enough for me, I do not require scripture to spell it out for me (and I accept the Trinity doctrine without having it spelled out in scripture).
Look I get that a lot of Christians do not do this and believe OT scriptures prevent it. We just do not agree on what those scriptures forbid and certainly do not agree that these practices obvious in the early Church represent a corruption of teaching.  |
18th January 2012, 12:20 PM
|  | Reformed Baptist
35  
| | Join Date: 11th February 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 4,084
Blessings: 81,674 My Mood 
Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,788) | | | Subscribing to thread!
__________________
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Exodus 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
Matthew 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Sola Fide (Faith Alone), Sola Gratia (Grace Alone), Solus Christus (Christ Alone), Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone), Soli Deo Gloria (Glory To God Alone).
|
18th January 2012, 01:06 PM
| | Take joy my King, My God be most blessed!
| | Join Date: 17th December 2006 Location: Mount Sion
Posts: 21,905
Blessings: 43,246,141
Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,804) | | Ok, just letting you's know I keep spinning this around, Jesus words over and over again and I am so learning something here by doing just that, these things are so AFFIRMING! I mean, I already knew it but somehow looking into it again and reestablishing the same by tying the same into other scripture is really awesome! My faith just shot through the roof in otherwords, He so rocks!
Ok, again....
No one come to the Father but by me
Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Theres that in that day, I in you which he says, I say NOT unto you that I will pray the Father for you
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven,
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Then ofcourse the asking in His name, then here ...
Ephes 3:14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
But (Again) he says this...
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
The same in repects to himself
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Ok... This is just way too awesome!
... they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
No wonder! That your JOY may be made FULL, he says hitherto (before he ascended) that ye have asked NOTHING in my name, so he says ASK that your JOY might actually be FULL.
Ever know something, but it just becomes reaffirmed? And its as if you heard it for the very first time? Thats what just happened in me
The more you think about it the more it sinks into your ears and eventually renews you again.
How awesome is He? Just too awesome, too awesome!
__________________
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. |
18th January 2012, 01:17 PM
|  | The Dude Abides
 
| | Join Date: 19th November 2002 Location: On The Prairie
Posts: 22,694
Blessings: 28,089,387 My Mood 
Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,808) | | No one come to the Father but by me That alone is good reason!
__________________ Dear Optimist, Pessimist, & Realist...
While you were arguing about the glass of water, I drank it!
Sincerely,
The Opportunist
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
18th January 2012, 01:29 PM
| | Take joy my King, My God be most blessed!
| | Join Date: 17th December 2006 Location: Mount Sion
Posts: 21,905
Blessings: 43,246,141
Reps: 9,223,372,036,854,775,808 (power: 9,223,372,036,854,804) | | Originally Posted by Rick Otto That alone is good reason! I never change do I?
__________________
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. |
19th January 2012, 02:26 AM
| | Regular Member
52   
| | Join Date: 5th November 2011
Posts: 479
Blessings: 108,305 My Mood 
Reps: 123,402,580,898,972,112 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Fireinfolding Ok, just letting you's know I keep spinning this around, Jesus words over and over again and I am so learning something here by doing just that, these things are so AFFIRMING! I mean, I already knew it but somehow looking into it again and reestablishing the same by tying the same into other scripture is really awesome! My faith just shot through the roof in otherwords, He so rocks!
Ok, again.... No one come to the Father but by me Ephes 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Theres that in that day, I in you which he says, I say NOT unto you that I will pray the Father for you Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. Then ofcourse the asking in His name, then here ... Ephes 3:14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, But (Again) he says this... Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. The same in repects to himself John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Ok... This is just way too awesome!
... they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. John 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. No wonder! That your JOY may be made FULL, he says hitherto (before he ascended) that ye have asked NOTHING in my name, so he says ASK that your JOY might actually be FULL.
Ever know something, but it just becomes reaffirmed? And its as if you heard it for the very first time? Thats what just happened in me
The more you think about it the more it sinks into your ears and eventually renews you again.
How awesome is He? Just too awesome, too awesome!
Right on Sis
There's always a danger when haggling with unbelievers 
But praise the Lord, To those who have, more will be given. 
God bless yuh  |
17th February 2012, 06:15 PM
|  | Ave Maria Gratia Plena
30 
| | Join Date: 31st May 2004 Location: Diocese of Evansville, IN USA
Posts: 71,378
Blessings: 1,150,053 My Mood 
Reps: 395,263,859,327,627,520 (power: 395,263,859,327,707) | | The Communion of the Saints is essential to Christian faith. The Communion of the Saints includes the belief that we can pray to the Saints. Indeed, it is a good and holy thing to do. We have a written record of belief in the intercession of the saints going back all the way to even 80 AD which proves that it is an ancient Christian belief. You can read more here: The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"We've had enough of exhortations to be silent! Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues. I see that the world is rotten because of silence." - Saint Catherine of Siena
|
18th February 2012, 06:28 AM
| | Veteran
| | Join Date: 8th September 2011
Posts: 1,853
Blessings: 10,400
Reps: 212,834,534,318,375,936 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Ave Maria The Communion of the Saints is essential to Christian faith. The Communion of the Saints includes the belief that we can pray to the Saints. Indeed, it is a good and holy thing to do. We have a written record of belief in the intercession of the saints going back all the way to even 80 AD which proves that it is an ancient Christian belief. You can read more here: The Intercession of the Saints | Catholic Answers Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers
Let's say for a minute that it is an "ancient Christian belief". Does that mean that everything Christians believe is Biblical?
Are we to get our doctrine from scripture or from what other people believe? | | |
| Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes |  Linear Mode |
| | |
