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Mariology & Hagiography The forum to discuss the area of Christian theology concerned with Mary, the Mother of Jesus as well as the theology involving Saints.

View Poll Results: How important is venerating (and praying to) the saints?
It's essential to our faith! 22 29.73%
Quite important, but understandable if some disagree. 6 8.11%
It couldn't hurt. 6 8.11%
I'm undecided, or don't really care. 3 4.05%
Faith is personal, no point arguing about it. 1 1.35%
The bible doesn't actually support it, so not very. 15 20.27%
It's tantamount to idolatry! 21 28.38%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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  #91  
Old 27th February 2012, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jackmt View Post
Paul asked others to pray to God. You might say that Paul prayed to others to pray for him, but that is equivocating. He was writing to the living saints. Not the dead ones.

And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? John 11:26


Who are you calling "dead" ?
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"A true opium of the people is a belief in nothingness after death — the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, and murders we are not going to be judged." Czeslaw Milosz

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  #92  
Old 27th February 2012, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Thekla View Post
And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? John 11:26


Who are you calling "dead" ?
Paul, Peter, Mary, James, John, Thomas, Jude, etc. Those who died (are absent from the body) and went to be with Christ. They are dead. Stop equivocating.
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  #93  
Old 27th February 2012, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jackmt View Post
Paul, Peter, Mary, James, John, Thomas, Jude, etc. Those who died (are absent from the body) and went to be with Christ. They are dead. Stop equivocating.
Do you disagree with Christ ? Or do you mean that Paul and the others you mention denied Christ ? Or do you believe that the human body is the source of life instead of God ? Or that the body of the risen Lord is full of death ? Or something else ?
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" ... let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole lives to Christ our God."
"A true opium of the people is a belief in nothingness after death — the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, and murders we are not going to be judged." Czeslaw Milosz

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  #94  
Old 27th February 2012, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Thekla View Post
Do you disagree with Christ ? Or do you mean that Paul and the others you mention denied Christ ? Or do you believe that the human body is the source of life instead of God ? Or that the body of the risen Lord is full of death ? Or something else ?
I have made my distinctions clear. If you persist in equivocating, we can not continue. Amos 3:3
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  #95  
Old 28th February 2012, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Thekla View Post
And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this? John 11:26


Who are you calling "dead" ?
John 11:13-15

New International Version (NIV)

13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”


Jesus called Lazarus DEAD and did so PLAINLY.
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  #96  
Old 28th February 2012, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by washedagain View Post
John 11:13-15

New International Version (NIV)

13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”


Jesus called Lazarus DEAD and did so PLAINLY.
Yep.

1 Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Dead:

1) properly
a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2) metaph.
a) spiritually dead
1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
2) inactive as respects doing right
b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
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For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Cor. 15:3-4)
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  #97  
Old 28th February 2012, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by washedagain View Post
John 11:13-15

New International Version (NIV)

13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”


Jesus called Lazarus DEAD and did so PLAINLY.
Yes, the body of Lazaros was without bios (life, of the duration or physical life), but there is another life - zoe (the spark of life which fills the bios, and the spiritual life).

As in Jeremiah's testimony concerning Rachel who had died, and with Christ speaking of Abraham, the other Lazaros, and the rich man, the cessation of bios does not cause the cessation of zoe.
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" ... let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole lives to Christ our God."
"A true opium of the people is a belief in nothingness after death — the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, and murders we are not going to be judged." Czeslaw Milosz

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  #98  
Old 28th February 2012, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Standing Up View Post
Yep.

1 Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Dead:

1) properly
a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate
2) metaph.
a) spiritually dead
1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
2) inactive as respects doing right
b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
The term used here for death is "nekros", which means "corpse". Ie the body (which ceases to live - bios - upon death) is without life, but not the zoe.

When Christ says that those who live and believe in Him shall never die, He uses for the term "live" a form of "zoe" - not "bios".

Note that Paul also says that to be absent from the body is to present with Christ. How can one be dead and be present with He Who is Life ?

The bios is not the zoe - and those with Christ are dead in body but also live (zoe) just as Christ promised.
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" ... let us commit ourselves, and one another, and our whole lives to Christ our God."
"A true opium of the people is a belief in nothingness after death — the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, and murders we are not going to be judged." Czeslaw Milosz

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Last edited by Thekla; 28th February 2012 at 10:25 AM.
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  #99  
Old 28th February 2012, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jackmt View Post
Paul, Peter, Mary, James, John, Thomas, Jude, etc. Those who died (are absent from the body) and went to be with Christ. They are dead. Stop equivocating.
Then Jesus is a liar. He said that those who believe in Him shall have eternal LIFE (life is the total opposite of death).
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Truly the penitent is not one who laments over the evil he has committed, but one who laments over all the evil that he is capable of committing. A wise landowner not only cuts the thornbush that has pricked him, but every thornbush on the field that is waiting to prick him.
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  #100  
Old 28th February 2012, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by katherine2001 View Post
Then Jesus is a liar. He said that those who believe in Him shall have eternal LIFE (life is the total opposite of death).
Those whose bodies have died, or are corpses if you prefer, is who I am calling dead. I acknowledge they are alive in another realm; some in heaven, some awaiting judgment.

Again, I have made those distinctions clear. If you maintain that their bodies are alive, say so. To answer me meaningfully you must accept my stipulative definition of "dead" or provide another we can use. Otherwise, you are committing the logical fallacyof equivocating.

Are the bodies of the saints in heaven alive or dead?

Last edited by jackmt; 3rd May 2012 at 06:04 AM.
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