Possibly leaving CF

.

__________________
"In a better, purer world—the world that cannot be—ambition would be an absolute disqualification for political authority." -- David B. Hart

Those who adhere to Messianic Judaism are considered to be Christians at CF. In GT, they are allowed to encourage the practice of judaising.

Hence, denying MJs free expression in GT would be against CF rules.

Therefore, GT is a present danger to one's Christian faith as heresy is allowed to be pontificated there.

~~~~~~~

P.S. Publicly complaining about CF is against the rules at CF.
If you wish to complain, please visit Member Services Center.
Here is their link: http://www.christianforums.com/f883/

__________________
Virgin Theotokos, rejoice!
O Mary, Full of Grace;
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
For thou hast borne the Savior of our souls.

+ + + + +

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory Forever!
O Giver of Life, Glory to Thee!


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Because this is our home - the Orthodox - and we can come here for fellowship, support, love and prayers on anything that may be hurting or bothering us. Nikos did exactly that. You read his post wrong and judged him. And to make such comments about something you admit you don't know anything about, nor what goes on in GT, is not wise.

Mariya, maybe you should read the forum rules, as IC suggested.

__________________
"The greater the love, the greater the sufferings of the soul.
The fuller the love, the fuller the knowledge of God.
The more ardent the love, the more fervent the prayer.
The more perfect the love, the holier the life." ~St. Silouan
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The Father is my hope, the Son my refuge, the Holy Spirit my protection: All-Holy Trinity, glory to You!
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PRAY constantly to FIND GOD.
LOVE greatly to KNOW GOD.
PARTAKE of His Sacraments to EXPERIENCE GOD.
~ from my little Orthodox Prayer book

It's been very pleasant staying at your safe haven. All the best.

Yeah, it was an uncharitable jab at cf. Forgive me.

__________________
"In a better, purer world—the world that cannot be—ambition would be an absolute disqualification for political authority." -- David B. Hart

You've said you don't know what Judaizing means, and you didn't know what GT means. Maybe a good idea is to discover what someone is actually saying before becoming offended. Otherwise what you are offended by is only your own projection of what other people are saying. That is a good way to spend a lot of time offended, and even if you enjoy that, it is uncharitable and an offense to truth.

Even if other people are unclear, one would expect you would be pleased to find out that they didn't mean what you thought.

__________________
“Well, allow me to introduce myself to you as an advocate of Ornamental Knowledge. You like the mind to be a neat machine, equipped to work efficiently, if narrowly, and with no extra bits or useless parts. I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt." R. Davies




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I still don't understand what you're offended by. If you feel you must go, then God bless, and best of luck. It just saddens me that a person is leaving due to false pretencis.

If I may say...

I'm Messianic myself, yet even within the camp there is a world of civil war with those who're Messianic simply due to the fact that there are alot of variety---and some doing things that Paul and the Jerusalem council noted in Acts 15. There's a difference between those who are Judaizers saying one can't be saved apart from becoming like the Jews and others who happen to be Jewish/love Jewish culture as they serve Christ (i.e Hebrew Christians) or who happen to be Gentiles with a great love for Jewish culture. The subject of judaizing is not a Messianic allowance, even though many do so in the name of MJism and really fail to represent what Jewish believers believe around the world.

For when considering all the evidence we have from the earliest years of the church, it seems apparent that what was present were people who loved rituals given by the Lord, with a highly developed and complex liturgical life, one led by bishops, priests and deacons and centered on communion--and made up of Jews and Gentiles. There were errors on all sides at certain points...but a love for both Jew/Gentile was present, with neither having to feel compelled to become like the other in order to have acceptance before the Lord...and I've been very glad see the many who've been apart of a Jewish perspective and connected with Orthodoxy (as I've been able to also learn alongside many friends who are Orthodox), whether that be in discussions on the Judaic spirit of the Ethopian Orthodox or Eastern Catholic Jewish culture....or seeing others within Jewish culture work with those who are Coptic Orthodox/suffering for the faith on all sides...or whether it be studying the Church Fathers or the Desert Fathers/Mothers..or being in the fellowship surrounded by the beauty of icons/symbolic worship.
__________________

When others say that the Lord doesn't care for anything Jewish, I have to take issue with that in light of how Yeshua and the apostles were Jewish..and people who were called to be apart of the Body of Christ which had both Jews/Gentiles together for the Lord. ..and not everyone Jewish or for Jewish culture is automatically trying to deny the Blood of Christ or condemn others for not practicing things that were shadows of what was to come (Hebrews 7-12). I say this due to how I roll with others who LOVE studying the Church Fathers/Early church and yet choose to attend Evangelical churches or MJish fellowships outside of Orthodoxy. Speaking for myself, the fellowship I go to has a small group that is very much based in what the early church was focused upon--called Mivdad. To us, they are in many ways closest to what the apostles were about and have many wonderful things to teach us today)---and one of the subjects often discussed there is the cultural contexualization of the faith within that world and what it has to say especially for us today who are apart of the Messianic Jewish world. As the rabbi of our fellowship is an zealous student of Eastern Christianity (as he was actively involved in it, specically as an EAstern Orthodox Monk for a time) and sees how much of the body has ignorant of how much that has truly impacted the Church, it's paramount for study to occur on such. Although we believe that the Ruach Ha Kodesh has moved in all streams of the CHurch (i.e. Evangelical, Pentecostal, Liturgical, Hebraic) and love discussing a broad range of topics, the early church fathers is one that can't be missed for us---and it has truly impacted me greatly. We appreciate and value others who study patristics and remain where they're at, like Robert Webber of " Ancient-Future Faith: Rethinking Evangelicalism for a Postmodern Generation" , who grew up Evangelical but ended up gravitating toward more of a liturgical based ideology/often critiqued Evangelicalism in its lack of connection with the early church...or people like Thomas Oden, one of the most prominent Paleo-orthodox theologians‎ and one who is very passionate about patristics (especially in regards to African saints/churches ), just as it's the case that others within Orthodoxy are evangelical/connected to that world (such as Bradley Nassif and others, discussed here) or reference materials by others in the world outside of Orthodoxy--such as what has often occurred whenever reference is made to others great Christian thinkers such as C.S Lewis.


So true....

And on the subject of Jewish influence, I think it's impossible for one to escape the reality that much of Orthodoxy cannot be divorced from Jewish cultural practices--especially when considering the reality of synagouge functions or ceremonial worship (i.e. altars, incense, clothing designs, etc). I don't think there's anything wrong, IMHO, with discussing where there was a bit of anti-semitic views amongst people in the early church and that has caused alot of drama over the years. However, within that discussion must also be an addressment of the many ways in which those in Jewish culture have done JUST as much damage in reverse when it comes to hating all things deemed "Gentile"....or simultaneously claiming that all aspects of anything that's Non-Jewish is somehow inferior to what Jewish culture is about. For from where I stand, the Lord worked in both Jews, Arabs, Indians, Asians and many others throughout history....

For good resources on the subject, the ministry of others such as Dr.Michael Brown (one of the foremost Messianic Apologists/Scholars and one who has often preached against Judaizing) is definately one to consider. Be it with his book entitled Our Hands Are Stained with Blood (which addressed many instances within the early church where anti-semitism occurred..also discussed here) or his books such as What Do Jewish People Think about Jesus?: And Other Questions Christians Ask about Jewish Beliefs, Practices, and History ... or his book Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus: New Testament Objections (which addresses many of the claims given by Jews in opposition to either Christianity or saying Gentiles are not called to live Jewishly in order to have acceptance---discussed here , here and here).

Others to consider are individuals such as Arnold Fruchtenbaum of Ariel Ministries (one who has worked with the Messianic Fellowship I attend ) ..as he's very balanced in his views when it comes to discussing the Law (shared here, here and here ). Others to consider would be people such as Asher Intrader, Dan Juster and a host of others who have sought to address alot of the things that often come up in the GT Forums...and that alot claiming to be "Messianic" often ignore when it challenges them. Moreover,ne can go here, here , here or examine the work of the Messianic Jews over at what's called "Rosh Pina Project"--seen in The Noahide “Framework” | - The Rosh Pina Project or here at Gentiles in the Messianic movement: Bnei Noach or Bnei Avraham? | ... -The Rosh Pina Project. They routinely speak against the grave error of Judaizing......and have often spoken about what's known as Counter-Missionary activity.

I'm very saddened to see the myriad of ways others have been giving Messianic Judaism a bad name.....much as others have often done when claiming the name of Christ and yet acting completly counter to how Christ was.....but depending on whom you ask, the answers will vary.

IMHO, Torah is a "function word" that expresses our responsibility in light of the covenantal acts of God. As the author of the Book of Hebrews makes clear: "When there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the Torah as well" (Heb. 7:12). The Levitical priesthood expresses the truth of the Covenant of Sinai, whereas the priesthood of Yeshua (after the order of Malki-Tzedek, Genesis 14) expresses the truth of the New Covenant. Both work together--but only in seeing what Yeshua emphasized can one have fullness of clarity, IMHO.


The Torah/Law given by the Lord have always been instructive/useful and beautiful in a myriad of ways--but there are many things which occurred outside of the Mosaic Law which were always on the heart of the Lord. Acts 15 comes to mind when seeing how the Jews noted that what occurred with the Gentiles was already discussed outside of the Mosaic Law---with Mosaic law simply echoing things that were already in existence from Genesis 9 (with Noah in what the Lord asked) or noting the need for grain/animal sacrifices even though that had been going on for ages since Adam/Eve and their sons lived in Genesis 4 (more discussed in #5 , #182 ...and #73 /#43 at the GT Forums when others were asking questions on whether or not God was Jewish).


As one individual wisely said best on the subject:

The standards of righteousness which the law upheld were now no longer a cause of fear, but the basis for rejoicing and worship. They once were frustrated by their own failure to fulfill the laws demands, but now they rejoiced because Christ had fulfilled the entire law and they were not under the curse. And the kingdom to which the Old Testament saint looked forward was a certainty, which Jewish and Gentile saints would receive together (see Hebrews 11:39-40).

....Paul’s very strong words in the Book of Galatians were addressed to those who would impose the law and law-keeping on Gentile believers, not toward those who were true believers and who wished, as Jewish Christians, to continue to live in accordance with the law and to observe Old Testament rituals. It was one (damnable) thing for Judaisers to insist that Gentile saints must keep the law in order to be saved, and quite another for Jewish Christians to keep the law because they were saved. Even Gentiles were not turned away from the law, but were enabled to fulfill its requirements:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1-4).

[quote=Easy G (G²);59534468]

Originally Posted by Easy G (G²)

If I may say...

I'm Messianic myself, yet even within the camp there is a world of civil war with those who're Messianic simply due to the fact that there are alot of variety---and some doing things that Paul and the Jerusalem council noted in Acts 15. There's a difference between those who are Judaizers saying one can't be saved apart from becoming like the Jews and others who happen to be Jewish/love Jewish culture as they serve Christ (i.e Hebrew Christians) or who happen to be Gentiles with a great love for Jewish culture. The subject of judaizing is not a Messianic allowance, even though many do so in the name of MJism and really fail to represent what Jewish believers believe around the world.

For when considering all the evidence we have from the earliest years of the church, it seems apparent that what was present were people who loved rituals given by the Lord, with a highly developed and complex liturgical life, one led by bishops, priests and deacons and centered on communion--and made up of Jews and Gentiles. There were errors on all sides at certain points...but a love for both Jew/Gentile was present, with neither having to feel compelled to become like the other in order to have acceptance before the Lord...and I've been very glad see the many who've been apart of a Jewish perspective and connected with Orthodoxy (as I've been able to also learn alongside many friends who are Orthodox), whether that be in discussions on the Judaic spirit of the Ethopian Orthodox or Eastern Catholic Jewish culture....or seeing others within Jewish culture work with those who are Coptic Orthodox/suffering for the faith on all sides...or whether it be studying the Church Fathers or the Desert Fathers/Mothers..or being in the fellowship surrounded by the beauty of icons/symbolic worship.
__________________

When others say that the Lord doesn't care for anything Jewish, I have to take issue with that in light of how Yeshua and the apostles were Jewish..and people who were called to be apart of the Body of Christ which had both Jews/Gentiles together for the Lord. ..and not everyone Jewish or for Jewish culture is automatically trying to deny the Blood of Christ or condemn others for not practicing things that were shadows of what was to come (Hebrews 7-12). I say this due to how I roll with others who LOVE studying the Church Fathers/Early church and yet choose to attend Evangelical churches or MJish fellowships outside of Orthodoxy. Speaking for myself, the fellowship I go to has a small group that is very much based in what the early church was focused upon--called Mivdad. To us, they are in many ways closest to what the apostles were about and have many wonderful things to teach us today)---and one of the subjects often discussed there is the cultural contexualization of the faith within that world and what it has to say especially for us today who are apart of the Messianic Jewish world. As the rabbi of our fellowship is an zealous student of Eastern Christianity (as he was actively involved in it, specically as an EAstern Orthodox Monk for a time) and sees how much of the body has ignorant of how much that has truly impacted the Church, it's paramount for study to occur on such. Although we believe that the Ruach Ha Kodesh has moved in all streams of the CHurch (i.e. Evangelical, Pentecostal, Liturgical, Hebraic) and love discussing a broad range of topics, the early church fathers is one that can't be missed for us---and it has truly impacted me greatly. We appreciate and value others who study patristics and remain where they're at, like Robert Webber of " Ancient-Future Faith: Rethinking Evangelicalism for a Postmodern Generation" , who grew up Evangelical but ended up gravitating toward more of a liturgical based ideology/often critiqued Evangelicalism in its lack of connection with the early church...or people like Thomas Oden, one of the most prominent Paleo-orthodox theologians‎ and one who is very passionate about patristics (especially in regards to African saints/churches ), just as it's the case that others within Orthodoxy are evangelical/connected to that world (such as Bradley Nassif and others, discussed here) or reference materials by others in the world outside of Orthodoxy--such as what has often occurred whenever reference is made to others great Christian thinkers such as C.S Lewis.


So true....

And on the subject of Jewish influence, I think it's impossible for one to escape the reality that much of Orthodoxy cannot be divorced from Jewish cultural practices--especially when considering the reality of synagouge functions or ceremonial worship (i.e. altars, incense, clothing designs, etc). I don't think there's anything wrong, IMHO, with discussing where there was a bit of anti-semitic views amongst people in the early church and that has caused alot of drama over the years.

Could you kindly start a new thread with this explanation?

Did you read my post about Carol who was excommunicated by Bishop JOSEPH for attending a passover service with her friends in Messianic Judaism?

__________________
Virgin Theotokos, rejoice!
O Mary, Full of Grace;
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
For thou hast borne the Savior of our souls.

+ + + + +

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory Forever!
O Giver of Life, Glory to Thee!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I'm not trying to be negative and self-righteous. I REALLY don't understand anything about theology. If you ask me about arts or music - I'm your girl, but not theories.

I guess that the reason I overreacted is because negative comments about Jews are so common among the Orthodox, and I'm so used to being silently angry about it, that I guess I saw offense where there was none... The poster who said that the misunderstanding was due to the confusion of the Jewish religion and the Jewish ethnicity, was right.