Since I believe the 10 commandments do not have to apply to us any longer, that is why I do not believe it is critical to choose the Sabbath day for worship. To my mind it does not matter and the manner in which I interpret scripture supports that. Of course you have chosen the other route and so Saturday is of supreme importance. I wonder how I am still able to live a Christian life without the law?
This sounds awfully relative. The way you read the scripture versus the way someone else does is not what matters. It's about what it really says. In other words, two differing opinions on matters of salvation cannot both be right. And let's be honest, it's not that you don't believe the ten commandments apply. You believe that only 9/10 still apply. There's a fundamental misunderstanding about the law due, in large part, to a misapplication of the words of Paul. This is quite unfortunate.
An adventist once told me that the law does not save us, but the law protects us.
When I read the law kills us, I see a contradiction with that statement.
I see no distiction between the 10 c. and any of the other temple laws or regulations.
Disobedience to the law kills. Obedience to the law brings blessings.
So if Christ fulfilled the law, then I do not need to fulfill it.
What does it mean that Christ fulfilled the law?
But if Christ's death had no impact on my relationship with the law, then my status is unchanged. Who cares if my past pre Christian sins are forgiven if the following ones condemn me. I am no better off, in fact I am worse off. At least before, I was ignorant and now I have no excuse. The law becomes my death and Christ's death has changed nothing.
If I embrace the law and apply it to my life, what is the point of Christ's death?
Valid questions, but you're looking at the law the wrong way. The way Christ's death has changed your relationship to the law is that His death has removed the penalty that was rightfully yours. By accepting Christ we move from death to life. This doesn't mean that the law no longer applies to us, but rather, it means that we now have a means of forgiveness through the shed blood of Christ. Think of it like this, the scripture says that we have an Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus. What do you need an advocate for?
If people were saved under the law in the OT which I believe they were, that means they had a working system that was doing its job. Christ's death was unnecessary because obedience to the law was working. Why must we have Christ if we have a functioning legal system that is already saving us? Believing in Christ is kind of pointless because his death really becomes unnecessary in a system that already works.
Never has a man been saved by his obedience to the law. It was by grace then just as it's by grace now. Don't forget, the sacrificial system was set up alongside of the law. It wasn't one or the other. What God gave to Israel was an invaluable example of what He was going to do for His people through Christ.
Christ could have just as easily come to earth and ministered to us and taught us all we needed and them ascended to heaven in glory and skipped the whole crucifixion entirely and no one would have argued that. To require the crucifixion is to require something that was not needed since if the law applies and we follow it who really needs anything more? To say he helps us follow it is fine, but he could certainly do that without dying on a cross.
This is incorrect. Christ HAD to die. Honestly, we're talking about God here. Don't you think that He would have done something else that wouldn't have involved His death were it possible? It's not like He would run out of options. The fact that Christ died is an amazing testimony to the eternal nature of God's law, and the price that must be paid for it's violation. If the law could be done away with, God would have done that, thus negating the need for His Son to die. This is a very interesting subject, one that would be great to study if you're so inclined.
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Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
I think that what you're saying is that the only thing that changed in the NT is that now the animal sacrifices are done away with since Christ has come. And now the old temple laws and regulations are invalid because the Jewish temple has been done away with. So now we can skip the animals because we have Jesus.
And now the Gentiles can freely partake of all this as well.
Everything else is pretty much operational just like the OT.
How sad.
And yes, I am very much a relativist. What difference does it make what the Bible really says to the reader? All that matters is how the reader chooses to interpret what he reads. Or what he believes it says, because that is what determines how he will live. Everything you believe is because you have chosen to believe it unless you're nothing but a blind sheep.
And I do not bind myself to the other 9 either.
Back when God gave the law to the people, Moses said, Let us be careful to obey all the words of this law for therein is our righteousness. It seems at least back then that righteousness with God was obtained by obedience to the law and not by any special gift of grace.
When Christ fulfilled the law, he met its requirements. He satisfied it. And now that I am in him, I have met its requirements as well.
Last edited by Section10; 11th January 2012 at 07:34 PM.
I would like to point out that christians in general are being persecuted, heard about India, african countries and stuff, mostly by the muslim majority. Surprisingly no one here seems to care about that.
I've noticed that. Where I used to work they had copies of "Voice of the Martyrs" magazine in the break room and it was an eye opener. Forget about a dubious future sunday law and look around the world right now.
The New Moon was a worship day according to the Commandment of the Lord.
Eze 46,1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened. And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening. Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbathsANDin the new moons
So the Sabbath wasn't the only "worship day" - the New Moon was as well...
...And since the New Moon determined the Sabbath at that time.
...You couldn't have the one w/out the other.
Surprised no one really commented on this...or maybe I'm not. I've researched it and believe it to be true. The more widespread this becomes, the more it says to me that the angel of God is spreading the last day's warning.
__________________ I am a non-Pauline Christian. What this means to me is that I value some of his writings but think others are in error. Benjamin is the tribe of the ravenous wolf, so great spokesmen from that tribe should be scrutinized carefully.
Surprised no one really commented on this...or maybe I'm not. I've researched it and believe it to be true. The more widespread this becomes, the more it says to me that the angel of God is spreading the last day's warning.
It's interesting for Seventh-day Adventists simply because the calendar described in that video is the ONLY way for the SDA's to have the death of Christ on the cross in 31 A.D. at the Jewish Passover AND on a Friday.
I think that what you're saying is that the only thing that changed in the NT is that now the animal sacrifices are done away with since Christ has come. And now the old temple laws and regulations are invalid because the Jewish temple has been done away with. So now we can skip the animals because we have Jesus.
And now the Gentiles can freely partake of all this as well.
Everything else is pretty much operational just like the OT.
How sad.
And yes, I am very much a relativist. What difference does it make what the Bible really says to the reader? All that matters is how the reader chooses to interpret what he reads. Or what he believes it says, because that is what determines how he will live. Everything you believe is because you have chosen to believe it unless you're nothing but a blind sheep.
And I do not bind myself to the other 9 either.
Back when God gave the law to the people, Moses said, Let us be careful to obey all the words of this law for therein is our righteousness. It seems at least back then that righteousness with God was obtained by obedience to the law and not by any special gift of grace.
When Christ fulfilled the law, he met its requirements. He satisfied it. And now that I am in him, I have met its requirements as well.
The scriptures aren't for relative interpretation. And I do believe you missed all that I was saying. The New Covenant is spelled out in Jeremiah, and yet somehow, it has been interpreted to mean anything except for what it says plainly. The keeping of the law was always God's intention for His people. Moses said it would be their righteousness, not because the law brought righteousness, but because in keeping it they would be fulfilling the true intent of the law which is to love God and their neighbor.
The ten commandments were not what Christ came to fulfill. You can't fulfill loving God or your neighbor. What Christ came to fulfill was the requirements of the law, i.e, its death sentence.
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Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
I've noticed that. Where I used to work they had copies of "Voice of the Martyrs" magazine in the break room and it was an eye opener. Forget about a dubious future sunday law and look around the world right now.
The presecution of Christians around the world is never far from my mind. I recall watching a video on CNN where a Chinese woman spoke about how afraid she was to remain Christian because of the persecution they suffered. That however is not the topic at hand. The topic at hand was the persecution of sabbath keeping Christians, which did occur, and which will occur again.
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Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
The presecution of Christians around the world is never far from my mind. I recall watching a video on CNN where a Chinese woman spoke about how afraid she was to remain Christian because of the persecution they suffered. That however is not the topic at hand. The topic at hand was the persecution of sabbath keeping Christians, which did occur, and which will occur again.
Maybe I have missed something, could you remind me of who and when was persecuted because of the sabbath?
Maybe I have missed something, could you remind me of who and when was persecuted because of the sabbath?
Do your own research
__________________
Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. 5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
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