Anyone from any religion can be Messianic

[quote=yedida;59427157] So if a Jew is a Christian, he is still a Messianic?

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Okay, thanks for the explanation.
Do you think Messianic Gentiles truly settle into the "Judaic perspective"?
I ask because I see the two as two very different things.

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[quote=ChavaK;59429636]

Originally Posted by yedida

So if a Jew is a Christian, he is still a Messianic?

If a Jew believes in Jesus Christ, he is a Christian, and if He remains a follower of Torah, then He is a Messianic Judaism believer. Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith in Yeshua.

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Since the Torah is a finite book expressing the will of an infinite God, many lessons must be derivable from each passage from all the infinite angles.

Originally Posted by ContraMundum

Tish...it could use paragraph breaks...but that is exactly where I am coming from.

I know CF was buggy the night I c/p that but its a sticky at the top of our forum for anyone interested

Originally Posted by yedida

i can agree to an extent. I've been trying hard to keep my "Messianic Jew" eyes on, I'd ask you Mjessianic Jews to try to put on your "Messianic Gentile" eyes. More often than not, that statement says "Messianic Jew(s)" and we gentiles will never be "....Jews."
Reword it to physically add "and Gentile(s)" and we got a working, inclusive document going....?

It does mention what the natural Jew is more than the natural Gentile but neither are excluded, its just that back in the beginning of this most recent outcrop of MJism and congregations, they came together as a place for Jews to keep their identity and traditions and not loose that part of them while sitting in Church pews.....Not to leave out the gentiles who join in because of conviction themselves, but it was founded by Jews for that reason...to preserve their traditions and practices(ie holidays and services)

Torah service both in the congregational setting and in private life are definitely foundational as well

Originally Posted by mishkan

Good question. It has to do with the fact that Christianity and Judaism use two very different standards to determine who fits into the group. Christianity is all about creeds--you are a member in good standing based on the fact that you have correct thoughts on certain subjects. Judaism, is mostly (not exclusively, by any means) about practice (for now, we'll ignore the double standard applied to born Jews versus converts).

So, if one system is creedal, and the other is practical--orthodoxy vice orthopraxy--then the two are not as mutually exclusive as we have been told. It is possible to blend practices and beliefs in almost infinite combination.

However, what we see from a practical standpoint is that most people fall into one perspective or the other. Jewish believers will either adopt the entire Christian package, and become "Hebrew Christians", or they will adopt the traditional Jewish package, and emphasize practice as a "Messianic Jew".

For the sake of completeness, this dichotomy arises with Gentiles, as well. But it is less evident in their case, since it is assumed that the default position for a Gentile would be a Christian church of some kind. We only notice Gentiles making a conscious choice regarding community of reference when they choose to identify as Messianics, and settle into the Judaic perspective.

Very well put

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Hello Mishkan!
While I can agree with a creed, I recognize it as a device of man. The "standard" of my belief and the many of those in fellowship with me is ONLY God's word as found in Scripture...ALL Scripture, not just the New Testament. I'm sorry, but Sister Tishri stated your explanation here is "well put". In all humility my Brother and Sister Tishri, I must disagree. I am so saddened that this seems to be the perspective of a great deal of Messianic believers. In Yeshua, we are all members in good standing and through Yeshua there is no more Jew and Gentile in God's eyes, there are only believers united in Messiach. If God forgets the difference between Jew and Gentile when He views us through His Son, should we be remembering it? Christianity is about those who have accepted Yeshua as Messiach, not about creeds. Christianity is about God's word in practice.

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"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline." (Proverbs 1:7)

"Blessed are the ears that hear the pulse of the Divine Whisperer, and give no heed to the many whisperings of the world." -- Thomas a Kempis

"I have observed that all the heresies and errors have arisen not from Scripture's own plain statements, but when that plainness of statement is ignored, and men follow the Scholastic arguments of their own brains."-Martin Luther

It's possible, but as yet I have not seen it, well, not completely, But that assumes that the Judaic perspective as we know it today is really necessary to know in the first place. It is a notion that assumes that the Judaic perspective (whatever that turns out to really mean) is the correct one. I don't know. All I know is that people have a way of making loving God and neighbor really messy.

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Was wondering the same thing--and the reason why is because anyone familar with the whole of Christendom will QUICKLY be able to note dozens of camps within it that have always had a focus more so based upon Orthopraxy than Orthodoxy. This is not to be taken as saying that Jews and Gentiles do not have distinctions at any points since the scriptures seem to be clear on that in multiple places with practices done by both/respected (Romans 1-2, Romans 14-15, Galatians 2-4, Colossians 2, Acts 10-11, Acts 15, Acts 21-24, etc)---but as it concerns our unity in the Messiah via His Blood, we're connected...and trying to make it out as if one camp is all about "creeds" and the other is about "deeds" isn't really historically accurate if trying to find a point of distinction between the Judaic viewpoint and the Gentile one.

Be it with those who were Eastern Christians practicing Monasticism (such as the Desert Fathers) , the people within the Pietism Movement who who emphasized the individual experience with walking out one's salvation/not necessarily having to agree with all things a domiant church sees or the people today (just like other camps such as the Radical Reformers and the Anabaptists), those within the Methodists Church and other places who began abolitionists movements for social reform (i.e. ending human trafficking, child slavery, prison reform, etc) ...or others choosing to live in inner-city communities/live out a Simple lifestyle of love based on who Christ was (if studying those calling themselves "Red Letter" Christians or New Monasticics)....and especially those within the Church who are Missional/apart of the Emerging Church, the focus upon practice has been very prominent within Christianity.

It was not about "creeds" at all for slaves within the Black Church when it came to living out their Christianity in opposition to what was occurring with American Christianity which emphasized practices COUNTER to what the Lord commanded with slavery/racism (be it with Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, Equinano, etc)---especially when investigating A Narrative on the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave--for Douglass felt that American Christianity practiced in the South is/was not authentic Christianity...and he went even further to say that in fact, it is another religion altogether (as discussed here and here ). That placed him at odds with the the establishment in many ways, but that was necessary...


And many times, it was said within the Church that what matters is deeds rather than creeds. Especially in grass-roots movements that were very tired of seeing the realm of discussion be only about what "creed" one happened to agree with.

Micah 6:8 "He has told you, O man, what is good;and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness,and to walk humbly with your God?"

1 John 3:16-18, "By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth."

James 1:27, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world."

James 2:14-18, "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Orthodoxy is not enough....and never has it been the case that all of Christendom has thought such. The splits that occurred within the Church over such matter are evidence of that, especially in regards to Eastern Christians and how they spread the Gospel all over Asia after being exiled due to not agreeing with some of the "creedal" views of the larger majority (discussed here in 48 and #47 )....and in nearly all camps of Christendom, when it comes to living out what one believes, there has been a focus on remembering that what one says they believe must be seen in their actions/daily living. For others saying that Christians need a creed about theological beliefs, I think we need to make a creed with our lives about how we are to carry out those theological beliefs. Most have done the former, few have done that latter....and seeing the amount of debates that've occurred in Christianity over the years (as seen here and here/here, for example), I think others should take note of that.




Many parts of Christianity it are indeed "creedal" in their focus---but in many ways, so has many parts of Messianic Judaism when it comes to emphasizing whatever creeds/dogmas they may have in describing how one is to view Torah/live it out (if saying it must be ONE way). In fact, I'd say that much of Judaism JUST as focused on creedal dynamics as the Christian world has been due to the amount of in-fighting occurring amongst one another for not really believing in the perspectives of another..be it with the Ultra-Orthodox fighting against the Orthodox, or the Reform vs Orthodox and the Chasidic against the Reform. The list goes on

. One would not even have to place something done in writing/divide on that basis to be "creedal", really....for it's a mindset one walks in primarily. And with others in Judaism, most have "Statements of Purpose" and historical review on why their respective camp is actually the correct one and has the "correct" practice---just as it can be within Christianity when there is debate over which definition of discipleship is the "correct" one and fighting oer that.



And to be clear, being Creedal is not necessarily a negative. For where Creeds can give shape/focus on articulating what one believes to be essential, they are beneficial...but only as far as those things deemed to be "essential" actually line up with what people truly believe.

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Timothy 4:15-16

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"Our ignorance of history causes us to slander our own times." ( Gustave Flaubert )

Proverbs 18:15
"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out."

Proverbs 24:3-6
5 A wise man has great power,
and a man of knowledge increases strength;

6 for waging war you need guidance,

and in the multitude of council there is safety.

To Jerushabelle:
In Yeshua, we are all members in good standing and through Yeshua there is no more Jew and Gentile in God's eyes, there are only believers united in Messiach. If God forgets the difference between Jew and Gentile when He views us through His Son, should we be remembering it?
I may agree with you. However isn’t Yeshua Ha Mashiach the perfect model of the Messianic Jew?
He invites us to take our cross, the mark of the spiritual circumcision, and asks us to try to identify oneself with Him.

I can't speak for all those that call themselves MJ-only for myself. It is hard to explain sometimes without some party being offended, but here goes.
I believe that the G-d of Israel made himself known first to the Hebrews/Jewish people. He set up a system of religion and government as we see in scriptures. They were obedient and disobedient. The first major disobedience resulted in being exiled to Babylon/assyria for 70 years. The why is important here. Jerimiah. Then after 70 years they were given the chance to do right. (From what I understand, this is where Rabbinnic Judaism came to be. This became a division among rabbinics and certain groups such as the Karites. (Not really looking for an argument on this, I might be a little off on the timing).
Anyways, The Jews were supposed to continue as they had been taught. But, we find in the writings that over time, they didn't, and fell into some of the same old failures. These are addressed in such scriptures as exekial 34 and the book of Malachi, and a few others.
Ezekial 34 is a very interesting read. It admonishes the leadership for not doing right. He is calling the leadership the BAD shepards. In the bottom of that chapter, It says that he (G-D) will become a shephard to his people. MJ's believe that to be Yeshua. The Father put his spirit within a man. Yeshua says in John 6 that He is the Good shephard.
The JEWS that listened to him knew what he was saying because they knew those writings and knew exactly what he was saying.
The son did not change the sabbath or the feasts. He never said to start a new religion. His emphasis was to call Israel back to the Father. Yeshua became the priest that was uncorruptable (sp). This is what Malachi was addressing. Most people use it for tithes and you will be cursed--blah..This book was about the corrupted priesthood keeping his inheritance (his people) from him (G-D). How? Because their offerings of polluted sacrifices were unacceptable-thereby no attonement, thus keeping his people from him. This book is not about money and tithing to the present-day church.
Then 400 tears or so later, Yeshua addresses the issues again...So, G-d made a sacrifice so no man could come before him and blame it on a corrupted priest. Many christians think the son did away with the instructions and that Torah is old and irrelavent because their bible says "old testament". I don't. I still believe that those instructions and what christians call old is where you learn so much about the character of G-d. Things he hated then, he still hates, and the things he loves he still loves. Yeshua taught of him, gave all honor to him, and taught the law until he died. He said no man comes to the Father...the goal is to come to the Father. But, you can't come to the father and reject the Father's ways or dismiss his teachings. Yet, that is what most of what Christianity teaches because whether they say it or not, many of their teachers have been anti-semetic and tried to remove themselves from Jews as much as possible. Messianic Jews look for a walk that resembles the walk of the disciples. We might not have it 100 percent, but that is what I try to do. It isn't about what race you were born as. It's not about what church or denomination you belong to. It really is about trying to please the Father. Christianity focuses on the son, and mostly on the son, when he was trying to reconcile people to the Father.
Salvation. Everytime the Jews were delivered/saved you find references to YHVH being the salvation of Israel. I am not trying to diminish Yeshua at all here, but rather to show that YHVH has always been the salvation of those that sought him out. He even came in the form of a man so that there would be no excuse left for mankind. So, you pray to the Father in the name of the incorruptable priest. This priest attones for our shortcomings in the keeping of the law--not throwing out the law of the Father as something Evil if you try to follow it. I'll gladly suffer a rebuke for trying to follow his law and his ways.....from christians that believe the law was done away with......now, to me, that is evil. To say that G-d gave laws you can't keep....then I watch them kneel to any new rule their company comes out with...they can obey man's law blindly with nothing said--just total subjection for that check, and then criticize me for following Torah as best I can....and then try to tell me about truth? Now, go ahead and stick me in a box. A label. I've seen that christian love turn as vile as you can imagine when you show them the koolaid some of them have been drinking. And then they want to know why you don't want to be a christian....And this is from many conversations out there on the road...
Funny thing. I was in a Flying J truckstop with a little downtime in the TV room. This other fellow started a conversation. Turns out he was a MJ also. We discussed it amongst ourselves loudly. Not one person there wanted to get in the conversation...They were like sponges soaking it up and learning. Learning that some of the koolaid they've been drinking has left them high and dry. That is why they are thirsty....and we were watering them with truth. truth to gat past the box. the label. To come to the Father.
Temptinfates

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I serve the G-d of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, And Temptinfates...and I'm Temptinfates

Just so I can clarify....because terms get used differently by different people-
by MJ do you mean you and the other man are halachaly Jewish (born to a Jewish mother) or are you referring to being grafted in?

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