The Holy Innocents

judechild · #11 20th July 2012, 10:27 PM

It does not matter that the children were too young to die willingly; they still suffered a martyr's death because they died for Christ, and in Christ's place (I see you didn't challenge that aspect). They are still among those who can say "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"

You are also incorrect to say that "The Holy Innocents died because of Christ" puts blame on God. Blame is in the causal agent, and Christ did not cause the death of the Holy Innocents, but His Incarnation was the reason that Herod attacked the children, and so it is true that the children died because of Christ's incarnation, which means that it is true that they died "because of Christ."

James4_14 · #12 20th July 2012, 11:39 PM

they still suffered a martyr's death because they died for Christ, and in Christ's place (I see you didn't challenge that aspect). They are still among those who can say "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"

I wish you would re-read my posts concerning the challenge I did not enter. You will find you are wrong. #7 in particular.

Your quote from the book of Revelation concerns the saints who were martyred for not taking the mark of the beast and concerns that time period only. This particular situation has led to other erroneous dogma. Overreaching eschatology leads to serious error. Another error is reading into Scriptures that which is not there.
The children were victims of Herod's evil.

judechild · #13 20th July 2012, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by James4_14

I wish you would re-read my posts concerning the challenge I did not enter. You will find you are wrong. #7 in particular.

Sure, I read them, and you didn't challenge it. All you said was that Christ was going to die, but that doesn't challenge my claim. It doesn't matter whether Herod could or could not have killed Christ, because the question is not about Christ's death; it is about the deaths of the Holy Innocents. I responded to your half-objection in post 9, but you did not continue the discussion on that point in post 10, and so I said that you did not challenge it (i.e. in post 10, which would be the natural continuation).

Your quote from the book of Revelation concerns the saints who were martyred for not taking the mark of the beast and concerns that time period only. This particular situation has led to other erroneous dogma. Overreaching eschatology leads to serious error. Another error is reading into Scriptures that which is not there.

If we are to say that "another error is reading into Scriptures that which is not there," then your problem is assuming that the souls under the altar are only the ones who "were martyred for not taking the mark of the beast;" since there is nothing in Revelation 6 that says such a thing. But even asuming that it did, I'm sure you've got some unique thought on what the mark of the beast is (is it a micro-chip, like so many co-religionists believe?).

But that's irrelevent, because I said that they can truely pray "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"

The children were victims of Herod's evil.

Yes, and Stephan was a victim of a mob's evil, but that doesn't affect his status as a martyr. The causal agent is Herod, but they died because of the Incarnation, and they died in His stead.

James4_14 · #14 12th August 2012, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by judechild

If we are to say that "another error is reading into Scriptures that which is not there," then your problem is assuming that the souls under the altar are only the ones who "were martyred for not taking the mark of the beast;" since there is nothing in Revelation 6 that says such a thing. But even asuming that it did, I'm sure you've got some unique thought on what the mark of the beast is (is it a micro-chip, like so many co-religionists believe?).

But that's irrelevent, because I said that they can truely pray "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"

***Rev 20:4-5
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Learning to use the Scriptures as a doctrinal whole and seeking "near context" as well as "remote context" are valuable tools for right division. John saw the very same thing as he saw in chapter six in chapter 20.
The two resurrections in Revelation form a pair. These resurrections are ONLY the ones that lived during the Great Tribulation period. These are NOT the only two resurrections in Scriptures.

Standing Up · #15 12th August 2012, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by judechild

-snip-

But that's irrelevent, because I said that they can truely pray "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"

-snip-

Do you find it of interest that they asked for judgement and avenging, yet Stephen and Christ, prayed forgiveness? IF SO, perhaps these are OT saints prior to resurrection (unless you have a better suggestion).

James4_14 · #16 12th August 2012, 04:09 PM

What is the Biblical defintition of...holy?