Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles

Shalom and Fair Greetings to my Brothers, Shimshon and Easy G, and to All Messianics in this Forum,

Easy G, having read your recent post to me, I find much that we agree upon. The same is true of the posts you exchanged with my dear friend and brother Shimshon. So I took it upon myself to answer your conciliatory tone with action. I have spent some time in study of the posts that gave as links in support of your position. In that I only had all night, I could not study, or for that matter even read them all! But I am confident that I got the gist of it. (I mean really G. You are an accomplished typist which is a great blessing! But you do go on and on. Some of us appreciate, when appropriate, a 'bottom line' approach. Please don't be offended. This isn't a dig. I'm just saying...) This is one of those places where I wish we still had the old ROFL smiley face.

So after some contemplation and consideration, this is what came to mind as an answer. (Please note: This really is kind of a 'bottom line' approach. You should see the study. )

Your collective understanding seems to be that there are two separate covenants that are now available to join. The 'old' covenant of Moshe or Israel, and then the 'new' covenant of Y'shua. And in a way you are right! But in another, even more important way, I believe you are in error. Please allow me to explain. And I would also ask that you would fully consider what I say here before you respond.

I too see the difference of which you speak. But I do not agree that it is an 'either/or' choice. At least, not in the way you describe. The Only Creator made a covenant with man (Adam). He was given charge of everything and in exchange was directed not to partake of the fruit that contained the knowledge of evil. (Pretty sweet deal, huh?) But Adam did and we know the result. I've got a bulletin for you. That covenant still stands. Observe:

1. Covenant with Adam.
2. Covenant with Noah
3. Covenant with Abraham
4. Covenant with Moses
5. Covenant with David
6. Covenant with Y'shua
7. Covenant with All

The Father still does not want us partaking of evil and even though it happened with Adam, He promised a Seed to bruise the head of the serpent, the very personification of evil.
He cleansed the world of evil and through Noah promised not to flood it again.
He promised the Seed would come through the fruitful loins of Abraham, to bless all the families of the world.
He promised the Redeemer through the Mosaic covenant with Israel.
He promised the Redeemer to come through the House of David.
He promised the Redeemer sorrow, death, resurrection and the right to make a new covenant of life in His Name.
He promised life and salvation to ALL that would believe on His Son in obedience.

Every one of these covenants has common threads or themes that runs through them all:

• Each one contains a promise of a Redeemer as well as other provisions.
• Every one of these covenants is still in effect today.
• Each one is progressive and stands upon the promises and provisions of the preceding ones.
• Every one of these covenants has provisions that we, as covenant recipients, are responsible for today.

Accepting the promises made to Noah and his descendants does not abrogate our responsibility to reject the knowledge of evil any more than it nullifies the promise of the Redeemer to redeem us and bring us back to the garden.
Accepting the promises of the covenant of fruitfulness made to Abraham did not abrogate the promise of Noah to live in righteousness, walk in His ways and keep His commandments. Are you seeing a pattern here?

If you doubt this assessment, please review the seven seals in the Revelation. Each covenant is sealed. So the seals in the Revelation are the judgements on those that have a broken covenant relationship with Him. Each seal judgement is the antithesis of the promise of each covenant it represents. For instance: Notice the fourth one that represents the covenant of Israel given to Moshe. Torah points to and defines sin. The wages of sin is... (drum roll please) Death. THAT is what the letter of the Law (Torah) means. But it's promise is the Redeemer and Life for all those that keep it - in Faith, Love and Obedience!

When it comes to intent...

Anyway, I think what we actually disagree on is very small. You agree that we still should literally not commit adultery for instance, right? That's not legalistic in your sight is it?

I tend to think that ALL covenant provisions are legalistic by nature. Think specific. When Y'shus tells us that we are saved by the grace of the the Father, I take that in a very literal and legalistic fashion. When He tells us to love one another, I take that as very literal and legalistic too. Literal in terms of the context and intent of the statement. Legalistic in the sense that there are very real consequences to not following His example and His instruction in these matters. Remember, intent is a legal concept by nature.

You have based much of your position on the intent of the heart. I agree. If I don't murder you solely because I don't want to burn, then I grant your point. I have commited murder in my heart. But if my intent is not to murder you because I am attempting to love you even as He loves you - I still literally and legalistically don't get to murder you. There are still consequences if I do.

You seem to be saying it's all about why. There are some that take that to mean, "Well, I murdered him. It just happened. But I see that I was wrong and I repent. Forgive me?" My response would be, "Of course I forgive you. But you still murdered him. So you will still have to face the consequences. Book 'em Danno..."

Paul was very careful to remind us all, that we are adopted under the Covenant of Israel. Everyone I know takes that to mean the Law of Moshe; Torah. The confusion came in when people tried to separate the Law of Moshe from the Traditions of the Pharisees and got it wrong. In Acts 15, when the Pharisees demanded that the gentiles undergo circumcision before they could walk in the ways of Torah, they were demanding that they convert to Judaism. But the conversion that they were really demanding was not to Yah, but to the authority of the leaders of Israel. They were demanding that the gentile believers follow the traditions and customs of the leaders of Israel, before they could follow the instructions of Yah (Torah).

So to finally answer the poll question in detail, YES, the same Torah is for both Jews and Gentiles alike and Yes, there are different provisions for each group, just as there are different provisions for those that live in the land and do not. But the concept that those that are saved by faith in Y'shua are no longer responsible to the provisions of the covenant of Israel (Torah) is a dangerous rejection of the very Teacher that they claim to follow. Never did Y'shua claim anything of the sort. In fact, He specifically warned against this very thing.

Humbly Offered in His Love,
Phillip