The annual "Christmas is Pagan" preemption thread.

Ishraqiyun · #41 1st December 2011, 10:41 AM

Pagans like celebrations and festivals. It would probably be hard to find a day that wasn't a pagan holiday at one point.

Standing Up · #42 1st December 2011, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Pilgrimer

But Joseph, along with every other male Israelite, if they were obedient to the commandments, would have made three pilgrimages each year to Jerusalem, for Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. Are you suggesting that Tabernacles was not a pilgrimage festival and that Jews were not commanded to appear in Jerusalem for it's observance?

No my friend, the commandment was that Jews must come to Jerusalem to keep the feast, and that's where the booths were constructed. Plus, if Bethlehem had been filled with booths then the "inn" wouldn't have been full and Mary wouldn't have been forced to have her baby in a stable.

Not so my friend. According to Leviticus, dwelling in booths during Tabernacles was no mere nod to convention, but they were commanded to "dwell (live) in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths: that your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt." Leviticus 23:42-43 And this was certainly what was understood and practiced during 2nd Temple times. "The Law commands that for seven days one shall remove from his permanent dwelling into a temporary dwelling." Here's a link to the Tractate Sukkah Tractate Sukkah and you can read all the regulations about observance. Whether you agree with them or not, they do represent the way the Jews observed the Law during the time of Christ and what would have been standard practice that prevailed at the time of Jesus' birth. -snip-

Here's Josephus:

4. Upon the fifteenth day of the same month, when the season of the year is changing for winter, the law enjoins us to pitch tabernacles in every one of our houses, so that we preserve ourselves from the cold of that time of the year; as also that when we should arrive at our own country, and come to that city which we should have then for our metropolis, because of the temple therein to be built, and keep a festival for eight days, and offer burnt-offerings, and sacrifice thank-offerings, that we should then carry in our hands a branch of myrtle, and willow, and a bough of the palm-tree, with the addition of the pome citron:
Chapter 10 - The Works of Flavius Josephus

So, it sounds as though they could have tabernacled in their own houses, as well as Jerusalem. Either was observed. In Jesus' case, we know they had to go to Bethlehem.

Standing Up · #43 1st December 2011, 12:18 PM

And scripture:

Neh. 8:14And they found written in the law which the LORD had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month:
v15And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as [it is] written.
v16 So the people went forth, and brought [them], and made themselves booths, every one upon the roof of his house, and in their courts, and in the courts of the house of God, and in the street of the water gate, and in the street of the gate of Ephraim.

It looks like wherever they were, not only in Jerusalem, they tabernacled. No command to come only to Jerusalem.

Pilgrimer · #44 1st December 2011, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

The booths weren't built in Jerusalem, but at homes. The males, only, went up to Jerusalem.
The entire families celebrated the Feast on their own home turf, as a harvest festival.
Deu 16:13
Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine:
Deu 16:14 And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] within thy gates.

The males only were required to go up to Jerusalem and the males only were required to dwell in booths. Women were excluded from either the commandment to go up to Jerusalem (which many did anyway, whole families together) and women were excluded from having to dwell in booths (which many did anyway, even whole families). The sick and infirm were also excluded, as were slaves. Also young children still dependent upon their mothers. And during heavy rains which could occur even this early in the fall the people were allowed to remove to permanent dwellings until the rain passed. But otherwise, all males Jews were required to dwell, actually live in these booths during the whole seven days, much of which they actually spent in the Temple attending the multitude of sacrifices and offerings and prayers.

But the assumption that booths could be built in any city wherever one lived is not supported by either Scripture or history. Nehemiah describes the first observance of Tabernacles after the captivity and not only does he make it clear the people came up to Jerusalem for the observance, but also that the people took the materials to build their booths from the trees growing in the vicinity of the Holy City.

"And they found written in the law which the Lord had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month: And that they should publish and proclaim in all their cities, and in Jerusalem, saying, Go forth unto the mount, and fetch olive branches, and pine branches, and myrtle branches, and palm branches, and branches of thick trees, to make booths, as it is written.

So the people went forth, and brought them, and made themselves booths, every one upon the roof of his house, and in their courts, and in the courts of the house of God, and in the street of the water gate, and in the street of the gate of Ephraim." Nehemiah 8:14-16

From this passage it is clear that the people "went forth" to Jerusalem where they gathered the materials and constructed their booths all over the Holy City, on the rooftops, in the courtyards, in the courts of the Temple, even in the streets of the gates, which tells us which "gates" the passage you cited were actually speaking of, those within the gates of the city of Jerusalem.

But also from Josephus we have this remarkable record that even during a time of war, when the Roman armies were marching through the land killing, burning, and pillaging, the Jewish people still observed the commandments to make the pilgrimage up to Jerusalem for the feast of Tabernacles and left their homes and fields and shops unguarded, trusting God to protect the land He had given them, and when the Roman army under Cestius reached Lydda, it was at the time of the feast of Tabernacles and they found the city deserted, all the populace having gone up to Jerusalem for the feast, only 50 persons being left in the entire city, which the Romans promptly killed and then burned down the city and cut down the orchards and vineyards. But when the army advanced to Gabaon and struck camp, within 50 furlongs of Jerusalem, the Jews, seeing that the war was approaching the capital, abandoned the feast and marched out to meet the Romans in a surprise attack and temporarily beat back the Roman advance. (Josephus, Wars, Book 2, Chapter 19, 515-517)

So clearly the Jews during New Testament times went up to Jerusalem to observe Tabernacles, whole cities, even during a time of war.

And as a final comment, Tabernacles was the feast of the ingathering, when the last of the crops (the vintage in August and the Olives harvest in September) were completed and a certain portion of the harvest was to be a sacrificial offering to God. This could only be done in Jerusalem.

So it is simply not true that the Jewish people could build booths and keep Tabernacles throughout the land, they had to come to Jerusalem, construct their booths from materials gathered from around the Holy City, and they had to actually dwell in the booths for seven days.

Now you may not agree with this mode of observance, and you are certainly free to hold whatever opinion you think best, but what is at issue is not our opinions. The issue is, what is the historical evidence for how the Jews were observing the feast of Taberacles during New Testament times.

And as to the issue of the calendar, Jesus never objected to the calendar in use at the time, and celebrated the feasts according to the traditions in use at the time based on the calendar in use at the time. To suggest that the calendar was flawed and the observance did not fulfill the commandments would place Jesus himself in the untenable position of having been in violation of the law, a suggestion that on it's face argues against itself.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

yeshuasavedme · #45 1st December 2011, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Here's Josephus:

4. Upon the fifteenth day of the same month, when the season of the year is changing for winter, the law enjoins us to pitch tabernacles in every one of our houses, so that we preserve ourselves from the cold of that time of the year; as also that when we should arrive at our own country, and come to that city which we should have then for our metropolis, because of the temple therein to be built, and keep a festival for eight days, and offer burnt-offerings, and sacrifice thank-offerings, that we should then carry in our hands a branch of myrtle, and willow, and a bough of the palm-tree, with the addition of the pome citron:
Chapter 10 - The Works of Flavius Josephus

So, it sounds as though they could have tabernacled in their own houses, as well as Jerusalem. Either was observed. In Jesus' case, we know they had to go to Bethlehem.

Yea.
Josephus was a resident of Jerusalem, except he did say he joined the Essenes in the wilderness for a time; but he did not actually follow what the entire nation did do, only what he knew from the big city.

The entire nation was enjoined to make the temporary shelter for the Feast of Tabernacles, and to celebrate the harvest with every soul in their household -which would include all the farmers and workers and bondslaves on estates. No way did they up and leave their properties and animals for seven days, on their own, to take every soul with them to Jerusalem, from their domestic dwelling places, all over the nation.
Also, the Israelites [as a whole, not as individuals], are notorious for not keeping the Feasts throughout their history, and it was no different in Jesus time, except that God fulfilled His plan, and there was no room in the inn, and so, the baby Jesus was born in a Sukkot -not a barn for animals, but a temporary shelter, and laid in a feeding trough as the symbol of His being the "Bread from heaven".

yeshuasavedme · #46 1st December 2011, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Pilgrimer

T

But the assumption that booths could be built in any city wherever one lived is not supported by either Scripture or history.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine:
Deu 16:14 And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] within thy gates.

So Jerusalem was filled with pilgrims who came to rejoice, while in the little town of Bethlehem, outside the city, where pilgrims also overflowed the inns, the angel told the Shepherds that they had reason to Rejoice!

Tabernacles is also called the "Season of our Rejoicing" .
Only a representative of the family was commanded to appear before the LORD in Jerusalem for the three feasts -but not for the entire seven days of Tabernacles were they commanded to be there. Joseph could have been excluded because of his wife's giving birth on the eve of Tabernacles, or he could have slipped over to the big city, celebrated, and come back, in a few hours time, and even every day if he so desired.
“Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord”.
The LORD pitched His Tent/Tabernacle, in Flesh not made with Hands on the Eve of Hannukah! and 40 weeks later, He was "brought forth" -come out of the virgin- at Tabernacles, the Season of Rejoicing was upon the world!

Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell/shakan/tabernacle in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

JOHN 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and did TABERNACLE among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth. (YLT) The Greek word translated "tabernacle" above is eskenosen. This word is a form of skenoo (#4637 in Strong's Greek Concordance). While it is usually translated "dwelt," Strong's says this word literally means: "to fix one's tabernacle, have one's tabernacle, abide (or live) in a tabernacle (or tent), tabernacle . . ." Birth of Jesus Christ - Here a little, there a little - Holy Days

I do not care when and how one celebrates the birth of Jesus, the Christ come in flesh of "a second tabernacle for His Glory dwelling, "not made with hands", but God has His own special Celebration already ordained for that day, and it will continue to be celebrated by the sign nation, until the last bit of its oracles are fulfilled, at the end of the Millennial Sabbath.

Jesus was born at Tabernacles, by the testimony of the Word, beginning at Haggai chapter 2, telling His exact day of incarnation in flesh in the womb of the virgin in the prepared New Man body, and "brought forth" on God's Holy Convocation Day, the Feast of Tabernacles.
God's Feasts are each a rehearsal of the Times and Seasons of His Coming in flesh, and of His Work for redemption of man and the earth.

yeshuasavedme · #47 1st December 2011, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Pilgrimer

And as to the issue of the calendar, Jesus never objected to the calendar in use at the time, and celebrated the feasts according to the traditions in use at the time based on the calendar in use at the time. To suggest that the calendar was flawed and the observance did not fulfill the commandments would place Jesus himself in the untenable position of having been in violation of the law, a suggestion that on it's face argues against itself.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

God so ordained it that Christ was incarnated in the prophesied season; was brought forth in the season of His appearing; was crucified in the proper, preordained season [the fourth day of the week was the proper day and that was when He was crucified]; rose in the proper pre-ordained season, sent the foretaste of the Father's Glory in the proper ordained season, and shall return in the pre-ordained season -even though the calendars are wrong and were wrong, after the return from Babylon, and even though the priesthood was corrupted, having been bought and sold and defiled for hundreds of years, yet God ordained everything to be fulfilled in His own Times and Seasons -forever.
Even His baptism "unto righteousness" -into the order of Firstborn and High Priest of earth, was ordained to be done by the proper representative of His own established line of order, which was why John the Baptist performed that baptism and the Holy Spirit performed that Anointing.

Even a stopped clock is right once a day, as they say, and the Times and Seasons appointed to be fulfilled were done -and shall be done-by God's proper calendar . He has a way of working things out, like that.

Pilgrimer · #48 1st December 2011, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

The census was not Jewish, but Roman.

The census was ordered by the Romans, Caesar Augustus to be exact, in the year 8 B.C. But Jewish law was that a census of the people could only be conducted by tribes, ergo each person had to return to the capital of their ancestral home, which as I stated was very disruptive to the Jewish economy so would have been well-planned. But during this period of time Herod was engrossed with the intrigues of his court, having put two sons to death in 7 B.C. Then it appears an attempt was made late in 6 B.C. to hold the census, but thousands of Pharisees objected to the oath of allegiance to Augustus that was required and refused bringing the nation to the brink of revolt. Herod punished the Pharisees with heavy fines, but when he discovered his brother's wife had paid the fines for the Pharisees, he banished her and when his brother refused to renounce her banished him as well. Then shortly after his brother died and reports reached Herod that he had been poisoned with poison that had been intended for Herod. Meanwhile, Herod's son Antipater, who was behind the effort to poison his father, fled to Rome and the protection of the Emperor (sounds like a soap opera, doesn't it!?!). Then finally late in 5 B.C. the census was conducted. During this same period of time that all this was going on Herod's health had steadily grown worse so that by the time of the census he was gravely ill, and when word leaked out in early 4 B.C. that he was dying, two Pharisaic teachers led their students to an act of rebellion by tearing down the golden eagle over the Temple gate, for which Herod had them all burned alive. This was on March 12 of 4 B.C. and Herod died around the end of March, shortly before the Passover.

So this was the political climate in Palestine during these pivotal years and why there was a delay in carrying out the census. When the next census was held, in 6 A.D., it caused a revolt that was only put down through much bloodshed. So a Roman census in Judaea and Galilee was not a simple matter as it was in other nations. And Herod, for all his inhumanity and madness, was not stupid but was a very politically astute man and made an effort not to unnecessarily provoke the difficult people he ruled.

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

Mary would not have gone for the Feast of Tabernacles if there had not been the Roman census. That was how God got her from Nazareth to Bethlehem, for the birth.

So you say, but you offer no actual historical support for that claim, it's just your opinion based on what you think some prophecies mean. See below:

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

Mic 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting. When the Stone was "brought out" [which was "laid in Zion" 40 weeks earlier, on the Eve of Hannukah], then the The shouts of Grace! Grace! rang through heavens corridors -and the shepherds in the field heard!

Again, you are interpreting a prophecy, not presenting Scriptural or historical evidence. And why did you stop quoting Micah? Why not include the words before and after to see if it gives us some context?

"Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up until the time that she which travaileth hath brougth forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth."

This wasn't simply a prophecy about Jesus' birth, it was a prophecy about Jesus, who would come forth from Bethlehem, being smitten with a rod but rising up to majesty and greatness over all the earth and of Israel being given up until the Jewish nation had brought forth the church.

That's the Gospel. Jesus was slain, but was raised up to sit at the right hand of God, and through a remnant of faithful Jewish followers the church was born. To take this prophecy and try to use it as a proof text for Jesus being born at Tabernacles is typical of how error occurs, taking Scripture out of context.

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Zec 4:7 Who [art] thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel [thou shalt become] a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone [thereof with] shoutings, [crying], Grace, grace unto it.

Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

None of these verses have anything to do with Tabernacles. And in fact, they don't have much to do with each other. Daniel 2:44 and 45 are both about the victory of the Kingdom of God, which didn't occur when Jesus was born, but when he died and opened the door into the Kingdom of God so that whosoever will may now walk in it's light and know power and victory over this world and it's kingdoms. This is a beautiful prophecy about Jesus' conquest over this world which he accomplished, not through his birth, but through his sinless life, atoning death, and justifying resurrection.

And as for Zecharia 4:7, you seem to be confusing the laying of the cornerstone of the church, which occurred at Jesus' death, with his birth. But notice what Isaiah 28:16 says: "Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place." Notice that God says that he will lay a stone which has been "tried," that was referring to the fact that Jesus had been in all points tempted as we are, but was found without sin. So again, this laying of the foundation stone of the church wasn't about his birth, but about his death and resurrection, which after all, is the foundation of the Gospel.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

childofdust · #49 1st December 2011, 01:34 PM

Name one Jewish holy day - or even a celebration - that is based on the birth of a person or any place within scripture where it tells us to celebrate the birth of a person. if you cannot, then you admit that any such holy day or celebration is Pagan.

yeshuasavedme · #50 1st December 2011, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by childofdust

Name one Jewish holy day - or even a celebration - that is based on the birth of a person or any place within scripture where it tells us to celebrate the birth of a person. if you cannot, then you admit that any such holy day or celebration is Pagan.

God's "Holy Convocations/Rehearsals" are given only to His namesake people of the New Man creation human being name =Israel. They are the sign nation, and they rehearsed them as His oracles of His "Times and Seasons" and shall, again, when the Times and Seasons put into the Father's own hands are restored in Israel.
Meantime, Christian Gentile Believers are under no command to keep or ban celebrations of events in their lives, or in the LORD'S Life.
We celebrate, but His Celebration of the incarnation into second Man flesh is at the Miracle of the Lights, and His celebration of His being "Brought Out" for "seeing" Him, is the Feast of Tabernacles.'

I think that I have given much more than enough Scripture to prove that -to those who seek understanding and who believe that the LORD does nothing but that He reveals it to His prophets first- He revealed His date of incarnation in Haggai 2, and His birth likewise at Tabernacles by the many associated Scriptures telling us about Him coming to Tabernacle among us, in flesh of second creation.
His incarnation is not a sudden thing that was not already revealed by the prophet Haggai [which name means Feast], and His birth was revealed by the many prophets who wrote of His coming to Tabernacle in flesh of second creation.