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29th May 2012, 08:32 AM
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Reps: 38,166,984,654,728,096 (power: 38,166,984,654,736) | | Originally Posted by gradyll  cause and effect can change as laws change as people become more liberal or conservative. So how can you say that the law of cause and effect is stable?
If something isn't true, why would it be a virtue to claim that it is? Likewise, if it's obvious that morals change why would it be a good thing to pretend that they don't? |
29th May 2012, 11:08 AM
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Reps: 579,882,325,460,913,792 (power: 579,882,325,460,945) | | Originally Posted by gradyll by nature you mean fallen nature?
No, I don't think in such terms. I mean human nature. much harder to keep a good nature than a bad one.
I'll agree there. eudaimonia,
Mark
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29th May 2012, 03:41 PM
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Reps: 4,446,822,502,958,666,752 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by gradyll by nature you mean fallen nature?
If so I agree.
But if you mean something good.
then I would disagree because our nature may change when things in our life changes.
much harder to keep a good nature than a bad one.
Surely you recognize our atheist philosopher doesn't adhere to the idea of "fallen nature?" By that, do you mean born with an image marred by sin, or do you mean the total depravity taught by Calvin? |
29th May 2012, 06:25 PM
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Reps: 660,242,651,141,856,640 (power: 660,242,651,141,871) | | Originally Posted by razeontherock Surely you recognize our atheist philosopher doesn't adhere to the idea of "fallen nature?" By that, do you mean born with an image marred by sin, or do you mean the total depravity taught by Calvin?
yeah I thought I would bring it up just in case. But just a simple fallen nature not (tulip).
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29th May 2012, 06:27 PM
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Reps: 660,242,651,141,856,640 (power: 660,242,651,141,871) | | Originally Posted by KCfromNC If something isn't true, why would it be a virtue to claim that it is? Likewise, if it's obvious that morals change why would it be a good thing to pretend that they don't?
the law of cause and effect changes and we become more or less moral all the time. Unless there is some moral law to follow. Even then we only compare to it, not meet it.
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"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the BIBLE than in any profane history...I have a fundamental belief in the BIBLE as the Word of G-D, written by men who were inspired. I study the BIBLE daily." Sir Isaac- founded physics, mechanics and calculus
“Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.”
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29th May 2012, 06:29 PM
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Reps: 660,242,651,141,856,640 (power: 660,242,651,141,871) | | Originally Posted by Eudaimonist No, I don't think in such terms. I mean human nature.
I'll agree there.
eudaimonia,
Mark
so we agree that the law of cause and effect is not stable? Because it changes as we change. Unless we compare to a solid non movable moral standard which you probably don't believe in.
__________________ Sir Isaac Newton-
"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the BIBLE than in any profane history...I have a fundamental belief in the BIBLE as the Word of G-D, written by men who were inspired. I study the BIBLE daily." Sir Isaac- founded physics, mechanics and calculus
“Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.”
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30th May 2012, 09:53 AM
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Reps: 579,882,325,460,913,792 (power: 579,882,325,460,945) | | Originally Posted by gradyll so we agree that the law of cause and effect is not stable?
No, we don't agree on that point. Because it changes as we change.
It doesn't change. We change as we change. This might seem to be nitpicking words, but I think it is an important point.
We don't change so very much that we become unhuman, so any causality that applies to us as human individuals can be counted on to happen. Yes, we may change in terms of our degree of virtue, but this doesn't excuse us from the need for moral character. Unless we compare to a solid non movable moral standard which you probably don't believe in.
Why probably?
I think that for reasonable intents and purposes the moral standard for human beings is solid and non-moving.
I personally don't live my life with the expectation that the moral standard will move just for me, and just because I happen to adopt different values. we become more or less moral all the time.
Something like that. Unless there is some moral law to follow.
There is a natural moral standard to apply. Even then we only compare to it, not meet it.
Yes, that's what one does with a standard. One uses it as a basis for comparison. A standard is used to make a measurement. eudaimonia,
Mark
Last edited by Eudaimonist; 30th May 2012 at 09:59 AM.
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30th May 2012, 09:56 AM
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Reps: 38,166,984,654,728,096 (power: 38,166,984,654,736) | | Originally Posted by gradyll the law of cause and effect changes and we become more or less moral all the time. Unless there is some moral law to follow. Even then we only compare to it, not meet it.
Proof of these claims? |
30th May 2012, 07:38 PM
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Reps: 660,242,651,141,856,640 (power: 660,242,651,141,871) | | Originally Posted by KCfromNC Proof of these claims?
what do you mean, proof that we are not moral creatures?
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"There are more sure marks of authenticity in the BIBLE than in any profane history...I have a fundamental belief in the BIBLE as the Word of G-D, written by men who were inspired. I study the BIBLE daily." Sir Isaac- founded physics, mechanics and calculus
“Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.”
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7th June 2012, 03:31 AM
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Reps: 10,428,440,613,900,312 (power: 10,428,440,613,902) | | Originally Posted by gradyll what do you mean, proof that we are not moral creatures?
I think he means "proof" that the philosophical concept of "cause and effect" can change.
Morality itself is subjective.
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