Between Jerusalem and Constantinople: What To Do with Those Who're Eastern Jews?

Shalom...

Concerning why I was writing, I was curious as to what any Orthodox here had to say on the issue of Jewish outreach---for where I'm at, its a very big deal for ministry to occur amongst those in the world of Judaism and its rather amazing to see how many are greatly appreciatiate when others reach out to them. Nevertheless, for many, it doesn't seem to be the case that within the Orthodox Church there is alot of discussion on what the experiences are like for those who may be Jewish. Some who are Jewish may find their home with those who are Eastern Catholics/Byzantine Catholics ( in light of how there's already alot of discussion/room being made in the Catholic church on those who are Hebrew Catholics and feel that their Jewish culture is best expressed in the Catholic church). Of course, with the Hebrew Catholics, many of them often are only presented with the aspect of Catholicism that is related to the Roman Catholic/Latin rite......and thus, for those Jewish believers who have more leanings to that which is of the East with either Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy in general, they may feel isolated.

Obvious is the fact that many Eastern Catholic rites are more similar to what occurs within Eastern Orthodoxy or Oriental Orthodoxy (i.e. Coptic Orthodox, Ethopian Orthodox..with the Ethopian Orthodox church having the most Judaic spirit to it since most of the Ethopians within it retained their Jewish culture to a significant degree). And sadly, as other scholars have noted, many Roman Catholics have never even heard of things such as Eastern Catholicism or Eastern Christianity for that matter.

Nonetheless, they're very beautiful to see in action. This is something I was glad to learn of from the Messianic Jewish Rabbi I work under, as he himself was a student within Eastern Christianity and experienced many times a myraid of expressions within Eastern Christian circles. It is because of this that many aspects of our fellowship (as seen here) incorporate aspects of Eastern Christianity frequently when it comes to teaching and insights. There was a discussion on the issue elsewhere that had many great insights--entitled Can a Hebrew Catholic be comfortable in a Melkite Church? . As another noted there, the Syriac and the Chaldean/Assyrian Churches are likely the most "Semitic" traditions for a number of reasons, with their Liturgies handed down from the time when they really were Hebrew Catholics...specifically, Temple Jewish Catholics.

But for those within Orthodoxy (specifically Eastern Orthodoxy), it has always interested me that there doesn't seem to be much discussion on the matter....and from the perspectives of some, perhaps not enough real concern on the subject to really have any kind of discussion. By no means do I say this to say that discussion doesnt' occur, as I'm not fully involved in Orthodoxy myself and have no full awareness of what discussions actually happen within parishes....and if there are sites/ministries anyone knows of that try to speak on the subject, that'd be appreciated. And for other places that've given some EXCELLENT discussion on the issue that come from the perspectives of Jewish individuals involved in Eastern Churches:

• Byzantine 101: Before Visiting an Eastern Catholic Church
• Another Israeli Orthodox Church | The Groom's Family
• Byzantine Jewess | Between Jerusalem and Constantinople
• Why Can't The Church Stay Jewish? | The Groom's Family
• Simchat Torah – Endings and Beginnings | Between Jerusalem and Constantinople...
• Standing Up To The Great Schism, The Great Divide, and the Great -Divorce--The Groom's Family...

As one of the ladies (from the site entitled "The Grooms Family" ) said best:

A couple of years ago I spent nine months in Western Ukraine, working at the Ukrainian Catholic University. Though an Orthodox Christian by choice (including the explicit choice not to become Roman Catholic, which was my other serious alternative), I worshipped regularly and enthusiastically with the University’s Byzantine Catholic community; I came to love those people and admire their piety, and bought into a fair chunk of their nationalist narrative. I also came to see their Eastern Catholic Church as they see it: as an ecumenical bridge between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, rejecting neither, and working and praying for the unity of the two.

That is not a typically Orthodox position; Orthodox believers are more likely to lament the existence of Byzantine Catholicism as a deceptive distraction from the real differences between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and therefore an obstacle either to their thoughtful resolution or to a definitive affirmation of Orthodoxy. But here is why I came to think the way I do. The Ukrainian Church has always been wedged, geographically and spiritually, in the middle of the battle – over land, souls, and doctrinal purity – between Rome and Constantinople, and later Moscow. The Great Schism, from the Ukrainian perspective, was a fight between the big dogs in the neighborhood.

Taking a side in this fight was a painful choice forced upon the Western Ukrainian community from the outside, by both Rome and the Orthodox world; not surprisingly, their bishops resisted it, staying in communion with both centers of Christianity as long as they could get away with it. When the alternatives have been defined by those outside one’s community in the course of their own conflict, one can take a stand if one must, but it is impossible to make a meaningful choice about one’s identity.


I recognize that some people will respond to this by saying that the theological differences between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy are significant, and that therefore these two alternatives are not merely the result of a conflict between entities outside of Ukraine – rather, they reflect a conflict of values, on which Ukrainians must take a stance. Perhaps that is so. The fact remains, however, that from the Ukrainian perspective the dichotomy was forced upon them: because they see a way to reconcile the denominational conflict (regardless of whether they are right about it), and because both Orthodox worship and connection with the West and the Western Church are historically part of their identity as a Christian people.

I recently found myself thinking of the Ukrainians’ situation in terms of that of children of divorce, inspired largely by Elizabeth Marquardt’s book, Between Two Worlds. Marquardt points out that a child whose parents could not keep their marriage together finds himself having to do something utterly unnatural for a child: either choose a parent or continually find ways to reconcile the two parents’ increasingly different worlds.

The Christian Jew must straddle an even greater divide than the Great Schism, and thus finds himself in a position in which he can fruitfully learn from the Ukrainian Catholic (frankly, regardless of whether my analysis of the latter’s predicament is correct). After Jesus died and was resurrected, some Jews chose to believe in Him. Others did not.

With the acceptance of the Gentiles into the Church, the Jews who did not accept Christ became the official representatives of Judaism, which increasingly defined itself against Christianity. The rabbinical establishment decided that there was no room for Christians among the Jewish people. It thus subsumed the dichotomy of Jew versus Christian, which is how the Jewish convert sees the two sides, under the dichotomy of Jew (or Hebrew) versus Gentile – which is NOT how the Jewish convert sees the two sides. The wisdom and the consequences of forcing Hebrew Christians into this false choice are similar to those of forcing the Ukrainian to choose between his Orthodox identity as a worshipper and his Catholic identity as a communicant.

The times when we must, and can, meaningfully take a stand are when the choice is between good and evil. Most choices are not like that, and certainly not the choice between one’s ethnic heritage and one’s faith.

I thought what she had to offer was very timely and reflective of some of the struggles many have coming from a Jewish background...be it in coming out of Judaism into Christianity or feeling torn between Eastern Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy when they may feel that the former is a bridge between Catholicism, Orthodoxy and their Jewish heritage. For any Eastern Orthodox here, do you personally feel that one who has a Jewish cultural heritage can have aspects of their culture reflected within Orthodoxy fully? Additionally, for those who are comfortable with Eastern Catholicism, are there any here who would approve of one's choice to remain within that camp rather than going into Eastern Orthodoxy fully? Whatever you feel, would love to hear sometime

__________________
"Our ignorance of history causes us to slander our own times." ( Gustave Flaubert )

Proverbs 18:15
"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out."

Proverbs 24:3-6
5 A wise man has great power,
and a man of knowledge increases strength;

6 for waging war you need guidance,

and in the multitude of council there is safety.

absolutely. there is a book out called Surprised by Christ, and it is the conversion story of the son of an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi, who became an Eastern Orthodox priest, Fr James Bernstein. there is also a Bulgarian parish that you might wanna check out/email in Boston, where both priests, Fr Patrick Tischel and Fr Michael Kon are Jews.

here is the link to the parish in Boston:
Holy Resurrection Orthodox Church - Allston, MA | Home

__________________
"Everyone capable of thanksgiving is capable of joy and eternal salvation." -Fr. Alexander Schmemann

"The time of the end, though it seems to be near, we do not know. Let us then struggle while it is still day, with the time and the weapons which our All-merciful God has given us!" -Fr. Seraphim Rose

Hi, ArmyMatt.

Many thanks for giving out the resoureces. I especially enjoyed learning of the book "Surprised by Christ", as there was an excellent podcast concerning interviewing the author and why he is as he is ( As seen here and here). On some of the resources I was able to investigate that were really good for processing:

• Flow of Consciousness: Surprised by Christ: My Journey from Orthodox Judaism to Orthodox Christianity ...

I have one book I was reading that discussed the ways in which Orthodoxoy reflected the era of Temple Worship and how early Jewish Christians would've been able to easily relate to the physical symbolism that often goes into Orthodox worship----but this read is excellent since a book such as this would be an important step in showing 1) that the Orthodox Church retains and values the memory of its Jewish heritage, and 2) that those of Jewish heritage have a respected voice within the Church.

For myself, I am curious how many within Orthodoxy were having the same experiences as he did over the past centuries and where to find more information on that..

__________________
"Our ignorance of history causes us to slander our own times." ( Gustave Flaubert )

Proverbs 18:15
"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out."

Proverbs 24:3-6
5 A wise man has great power,
and a man of knowledge increases strength;

6 for waging war you need guidance,

and in the multitude of council there is safety.

There's also a book - I think the title is "Orthodox Worship - Christian and Jewish", or something similar. It details the relationship and development from Jewish worship to Orthodox Christian worship.

Mary

__________________
Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing Life!

The book you mentioned was an excellent one indeed, called "Orthodox Worship: A Living Continuity With the Temple, the Synagogue and the Early Church" ( ).







I remember going through it before earlier this year and before I actually went to an Orthodox church (as discussed more in -depth here in #37 and #1 ). The Rabbi of my fellowship had actually given me the book to study on the subject of Orthodoxy and Judaism with temple worship that helped me to make sense of things in regards to the connections between Judaism and Orthodoxy.

__________________
"Our ignorance of history causes us to slander our own times." ( Gustave Flaubert )

Proverbs 18:15
"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out."

Proverbs 24:3-6
5 A wise man has great power,
and a man of knowledge increases strength;

6 for waging war you need guidance,

and in the multitude of council there is safety.

I would say, since the parish in Boston is run by Jewish priests, why not shoot them an email?

__________________
"Everyone capable of thanksgiving is capable of joy and eternal salvation." -Fr. Alexander Schmemann

"The time of the end, though it seems to be near, we do not know. Let us then struggle while it is still day, with the time and the weapons which our All-merciful God has given us!" -Fr. Seraphim Rose

Never got to say thanks for the suggestion, although I'd always prefer trying to find a way to somehow meet them in person. If could get the funds for a trip up there (even though I HATE The cold), that'd be a blessing.

__________________
"Our ignorance of history causes us to slander our own times." ( Gustave Flaubert )

Proverbs 18:15
"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out."

Proverbs 24:3-6
5 A wise man has great power,
and a man of knowledge increases strength;

6 for waging war you need guidance,

and in the multitude of council there is safety.

I *think* that after WII was over in 1945-1952 different sorts of Jews still immigrated and immigrated to certain places. Perhaps, Eastern Jews want to colonize East Israel and Western Jews want to colonize West Israel and the southern Jews should colonize South Israel and finally the Northern Jews want to colonize North Israel. I'm not exactly sure about Southwestern Israel or Southeast Israel. I think you get my point.

. .

__________________
-(excerpt from Webster's New World English Grammar Handbook)-

{the study of your dialect. "Your language," says Perrin, "in the long run represents your personality, and you are responsible for the language you use."}

I get where you're coming from and it's interesting to consider.

__________________
"Our ignorance of history causes us to slander our own times." ( Gustave Flaubert )

Proverbs 18:15
"The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out."

Proverbs 24:3-6
5 A wise man has great power,
and a man of knowledge increases strength;

6 for waging war you need guidance,

and in the multitude of council there is safety.

maybe the email could lead to a face to face, at least they could give some advice. maybe as well you could look into Fr Alexander Men or Met Anthony Bloom. both were Jews who converted to Orthodoxy, and they both have growing veneration and calls for their sainthood.

ya never know....

__________________
"Everyone capable of thanksgiving is capable of joy and eternal salvation." -Fr. Alexander Schmemann

"The time of the end, though it seems to be near, we do not know. Let us then struggle while it is still day, with the time and the weapons which our All-merciful God has given us!" -Fr. Seraphim Rose