Unorthodox TheologyA forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity (eg. Full Preterism, Unitarianism)
Orthodox* and Unorthodox members welcome
According to orthodoxy????...eternal torture because you stole a piece of gum before you died without knowing Jesus.
Where did I say that? I may be using the Calvinist icon but I am by no means a Calvinist. Do you not agree that God is in the world? Then surely He can make Himself known to even an unbeliever who has never been reached by Christian missionaries. In fact, those who know are more in danger.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
YES YES YES....LIFE and LIFE ABUNDANT. Do you think Jesus failed in his mission? Orthodoxy says yes and we're all saying NO.
So what does it mean to have abundant life? Overall well being. So what about those who will not have life (John 3:36)? What about the imagery of gnashing teeth in the dark? Does that not indicate loss of well being? Even if there is no fiery punishment, there will be permanent unhealthiness.
Remember, the leaves of the tree of life are for those who are left of the nations. Not everyone will receive of this healing.
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Matthew 12:45 Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”
Mark 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Matt. 10:33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
What was in this generation carries over to the judgment.
The Pharisees' refusal to accept Jesus' words meant that they were losing health. So in death, they will lose much more.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
As one who spent a couple of years in jail ministry I disagree. And if you believe what you just said then everyone in prison should be on death row. I know you don't believe that's true in the judgment system of man, but you do think it's the truth with the judgment of God. That's a problem for me.
You forgot a big reason for the origin of prisons. CORRECTION!!! That's the problem I had with our jail and its administrator. When I confronted him with this reason for 'the jail' he got very upset and said there's a big debate in 'the jail system' over this very issue. They are not going to be responsible for 'CORRECTION' their priority is "CARE CUSTODY AND CONTROL". Why have they taken that position??? Because the system isn't working and they don't want responsibilty for failure to CORRECT. That unfortunately is much like the state of the church today. A church whose members are no longer in to 'sanctification/CORRECTION' they are in to 'justification'...of their sins. That's just sad IMO.
"The biggest mistake that our societies have made is to believe that you must punish hard to change criminals," explained Oeyvind Alnaes, Bastoey's then-prison governor. "This is wrong. The big closed prisons are criminal schools. If you treat people badly, they will behave badly. Anyone can be a citizen if we treat them well, respect them, and give them challenges and demands."
Alnaes' views reflect the way Norway and the rest of Scandinavia run their penal systems. In Norway, there are no death sentences — or even life sentences. The maximum jail term anyone can receive is 21 years, including for murder. Most people will serve two-thirds of their term before being released. Convicts retain the right to vote and can exercise it while in jail.
All inmates start their sentence in a traditional, closed prison. These more secure facilities share some of the ills their American counterparts are known for, including high drug abuse, lack of education and job opportunities, which means most detainees spend 23 out of 24 hours locked in their cells. Even so, the experience of closed prisons here is quite different from those of prisons abroad.
__________________ John 8:24 unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Luke 13:3, 5 unless you are repentant, you will... perish.
Matthew 18:3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you... become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt. 12:36 But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
Heb. 9:27-28 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
This is not about hell fire. This is about the antonym of abundant well being.
To have no life means to be in a worse state. Think of disability, cancer, etc.
To have no life means to be left unhealed.
Eternal life = healed
No life = no deliverance from sin (1 Cor. 15:17)
__________________ John 8:24 unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Luke 13:3, 5 unless you are repentant, you will... perish.
Matthew 18:3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you... become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Do you know what I find amusing? all who say there is no hell, never answer my questions. Why is that? So I'll ask them again,
"Do you believe heaven is a real place?" If you do, then hell has to be a real place. If you claim that heaven is symbolic, then I can agree with you that hell is symbolic.
But if heaven is real, hell has to be real also. If being taken into heaven means just that, how would you justify being cast into hell as something other than that?
How do you equate the phrase, physically dead, with eternal torment? How do you equate being dead in the grave, having no life, with being cast alive into the lake of fire? Concerning "eternal fire," how do you equate that with having no existence?
Can Satan be killed, extinguished forever? If so, how would you justify the verse, "The devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
If this verse does not mean what it implies, than what does it mean? And if you say its symbolic, than what is the symbolic representation?
The story of Lazarus in heaven, and the rich man in hell, how do you symbolize that? If it is symbolic, what is it symbolic of? Lazarus is tormented, Luke 16:23, he thirsted because he requested water, he could sees with his eyes, he knew he was being tormented by flames. Explain these away. What do all his senses, seeing, speaking, feeling, thirsting represent if there symbolic?
Just answer the questions if you can.
Tackattack, Hell.
A place originally prepared for fallen angels, and Satan. But now also, a place for the spiritually dead. A place of eternal torment for those who reject Christ, and those who do evil. A place where there will be a weeping and gnashing of teeth. A place without God. A place of eternal darkness. A place where the fire will not be quenched.
Does it exist?
Rev.20:10, "The devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Ver.12, "I saw the dead (Humans) small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which i the book of life: (God does keep records.) and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every MAN according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Refer back to ver.11, "And shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Torment, Extreem pain; anguish; the utmost degree of misery, of body, soul, and spirit. Excruciating pain and misery.
Hay, the above appears to resemble what men put Jesus Christ through; and they laughed all the way to the cross. And those who reject Christ, are as guilty as those who beat him, mocked him, and drove nails through his hands and feet.
Refer to Rev.14:9-10, "If any MAN worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same (man) shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God. --- and he (the man) shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
And they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Can't get any clearer than that. Deny all you want, it doesn't change a thing. This information in Revelation was a mystery kept secret from the beginning of time, then in God's time plan, He revealed it to John.
Rev.1:3, "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein."
Rev.10:7, "The mystery of God should be finished." You can call God mean, cruel, or whatever; but this is his justice, and wrath, be warned, you have been told.
Phil LaSpino
The problem is the inconsistently with your line of reasoning. Yes, there is a place reserved for those who are in a state /or condition of spiritual darkness. This is what modern doctrine passes off as ' hell' and I agree that there is such place. However, this place or condition will no longer exist at some p oint and time when all people are released from this condition. Because A Savior is going to transform and heal everyone. And this is when God will be in all.
This is a promise foretold by the prophets , as the end to death and suffering.
"By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear." Isa 45:23
" He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken." Isa 25:8
__________________ Condemn no man for not thinking as you think: Let every one enjoy the full and free liberty of thinking for himself:... — John Wesley
Where did I say that? I may be using the Calvinist icon but I am by no means a Calvinist. Do you not agree that God is in the world? Then surely He can make Himself known to even an unbeliever who has never been reached by Christian missionaries.
If He makes Himself known then whoever He does that too,will believe. If God would have manifested to my dad like he did Paul, my Dad would have had a testimony for Jesus too. Who could not believe after being blown off a donkey and hearing Jesus speak from heaven???? So either God IS a respecter of persons concerning this great salvation or He is a respecter ofseasons as to when He manifests or "calls/draws/predestines" one to believe.
So what does it mean to have abundant life? Overall well being. So what about those who will not have life (John 3:36)? What about the imagery of gnashing teeth in the dark? Does that not indicate loss of well being? Even if there is no fiery punishment, there will be permanent unhealthiness.
Read Joh 3:36 and tell me why that can't be speaking of Christians who don't OBEY/believe Him? The read Matt 8:12 and see who has this "gnashing of teeth"...it says "the children of the kingdom"...again sounds like believers to me. Now consider that scripture says "God scourges every son he loves"....Did you see 'The Passion'? Do you remember the scourging scene? Was there a little gnashing of teeth by Jesus? So metaphorically does "gnashing of teeth" imply God dealing harshly with the sin issue. I think it does. I am not light on sin. I am just not heavy on making God do a worse thing than any person whose ever lived on the face of the earth. Someone who is supposedly worthy of eternal purposeless sadistic torture (orthodox hell has no better definition IMO).
Remember, the leaves of the tree of life are for those who are left of the nations. Not everyone will receive of this healing.
What 'healing' would nations who are 'in heaven' need? Would it not be those who have not yet been healed of all that sin causes.
John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Whose will determines 'your will' when it comes to this initial eternally secure 'get saved' experience? According to scripture it is His work.
PHI 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
John 1:13 who were born (again), not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
I believe in predestination. You don't come until He "calls, draws, chooses". And when He does YOU WILL RESPOND just like me...just like Paul.
Matthew 12:45 Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”
SO? All that means is you were clean and now you're dirty again but your experience of that dirt is worse because you know what being clean is like. It's just like the dog/pig returning to their vomit/mud. They didn't loose what they were 'born as' did they? Neither does a backsliding Christian loose his 'born again spirit' salvation by committing soul-sick flesh-bucket sin again.
Mark 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Yep, ashamed but I don't see anything about eternal torture. I do read in 1Cor 3 though about a believer who He was ashamed of so he had to be "SAVED yet though as by FIRE".
I'm sure you've heard of the Norway shooter.
Nope, But I'll try to find time to check it out and get back to ya.
__________________ HILLSAGE Don't try so hard to shut out the bad, that you’re not letting in the good.
He who only knows 'that which he believes' doesn't even know that.
The biggest obstacle to discovering the truth is not ignorance...it's the illusion of knowledge.
Last edited by Hillsage; 25th October 2011 at 04:10 PM.
Reason: additions
If He makes Himself known then whoever He does that too,will believe. If God would have manifested to my dad like he did Paul, my Dad would have had a testimony for Jesus too. Who could not believe after being blown off a donkey and hearing Jesus speak from heaven????
True. But what about those who already know Him? Like the angels? Also, will those who find God through this manner repent? They might believe but that doesn't mean they'll repent. See Revelation 20:8. That people could sustain such rebellious resentment/false reverence for such a long time, it's clear that they did not want Him to rule over them. How can people live a thousand years unless it's generational?
Originally Posted by Hillsage
So either God IS a respecter of persons concerning this great salvation or He is a respecter ofseasons as to when He manifests or "calls/draws/predestines" one to believe.
Seasons? And yes, God is a respecter of persons. There are special types of people. Consider Adam, a type of Christ and a friend of God (see their chat in the garden after his sin is uncovered).
Don't forget leads.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
The read Matt 8:12 and see who has this "gnashing of teeth"...it says "the children of the kingdom"...again sounds like believers to me.
Ok, 2 questions first.
1. Isn't Matt. 8:12 messianic? Consider the context. He's talking with a Gentile, He's referring to Jewish tradition (see Luke 16, Abraham's bosom). It's clear that He's saying many Jews will lose their privileges to the Gentiles.
2. "Sons of the kingdom" also occurs in Matt. 13:38:
and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
But how can we be sure about "sons of the kingdom"? In the former, it may have been referring to the Jews (astray sheep). In the latter, it may be referring to God's sheep (Christians).
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Now consider that scripture says "God scourges every son he loves"....
Here's an interesting verse that may support your belief:
Matt. 24:51 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him in pieces [Or severely scourge him] and assign him a place [Lit appoint his portion] with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
In a way this also supports my view: loss of privilege, well being
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Did you see 'The Passion'? Do you remember the scourging scene? Was there a little gnashing of teeth by Jesus?
Excellent reference. I remember it.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
So metaphorically does "gnashing of teeth" imply God dealing harshly with the sin issue.
I think it does. I am not light on sin. I am just not heavy on making God do a worse thing than any person whose ever lived on the face of the earth. Someone who is supposedly worthy of eternal purposeless sadistic torture (orthodox hell has no better definition IMO).
True.
But the problem with your proposition is that you say eternal torture has no purpose. That would be from your perspective.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
What 'healing' would nations who are 'in heaven' need? Would it not be those who have not yet been healed of all that sin causes.
Zechariah 14:16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
Scripture is clear that those who are slain by God on that day will never see resurrection. In fact, this is the only time annihilation may have some weight.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Whose will determines 'your will' when it comes to this initial eternally secure 'get saved' experience? According to scripture it is His work.
PHI 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
John 1:13 who were born (again), not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
I believe in predestination. You don't come until He "calls, draws, chooses". And when He does YOU WILL RESPOND just like me...just like Paul.
I did not at all mean OSAS. My belief in an "initially limited, presently expanding to near universal atonement" corresponds with Scripture:
God appointed workers to gather material for His building. The key word is material. Something of value. Surely God considers man valuable, even His apostates (Matt. 18:10-14). But did He release these from their sin when He died? No, He released (Rev. 1:5) His chosen (2 Cor. 5:20-21) to do that work. It is God's pleasure to work through His people (2 Tim. 2:25).
Consider John 15:2 and 1 John 5:18. OSAS is only valid if God keeps cleaning a person. But there are times in Scripture where He ceases that activity and the person must return to Him. That is why OSAS is not correct, because it depends on the person's choice in such a circumstance.
Have you seen the movie David and Bathsheba? It takes the account quite seriously compared to the other OT movies. Near the ending, there is a scene were David places his hand on the Ark of the Covenant while praying and confessing his sins. He does not die.
See Hebrews 10:22. An appeal to God is by choice, not necessarily forced. See 1 Peter 1:22.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
SO? All that means is you were clean and now you're dirty again but your experience of that dirt is worse because you know what being clean is like.
I disagree.
Here's my example:
A man involved with criminals has a big debt to pay but someone who he doesn't know does it for him. The man asks him why he did that and what he can do for him in repayment. The benefactor just replies, "just be good, be safe, don't hang out with bad people". The man neglects this advise and gets in even bigger trouble. Where is his benefactor?
Would his benefactor even want to get involved? Does the benefactor know this man? Is this benefactor able to help this man? Does he have the desire to help this man?
If you answered yes to all 3, then I think you know what I'm saying:
Worst state of the man has nothing to do with knowledge/experience. Worst state of the man means to be progressing to an irreparable state.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
It's just like the dog/pig returning to their vomit/mud. They didn't loose what they were 'born as' did they? Neither does a backsliding Christian loose his 'born again spirit' salvation by committing soul-sick flesh-bucket sin again.
Until he receives a new spirit and a new body (resurrection), he is vulnerable to loss of salvation. Should God suddenly remove His protection (He can do that, like He did with Job), the person is vulnerable.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Yep, ashamed but I don't see anything about eternal torture. I do read in 1Cor 3 though about a believer who He was ashamed of so he had to be "SAVED yet though as by FIRE".
I never mentioned eternal torture. That is not what I'm trying to debate.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Nope, But I'll try to find time to check it out and get back to ya.
Nice discussion we had.
My current view:
Hell is loss of well being, privileges, and perfect healing. It doesn't necessarily mean eternal death or eternal torment but it is a loss of something.
__________________ John 8:24 unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Luke 13:3, 5 unless you are repentant, you will... perish.
Matthew 18:3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you... become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Last edited by Jpark; 25th October 2011 at 08:22 PM.
Too much post for me to enjoy responding to, but here goes.
Originally Posted by Jpark
True. But what about those who already know Him? Like the angels? Also, will those who find God through this manner repent? They might believe but that doesn't mean they'll repent.
I believe God is a consuming fire and in the end ALL will be IN HIM...being dealt with.
Seasons? And yes, God is a respecter of persons. There are special types of people. Consider Adam, a type of Christ and a friend of God (see their chat in the garden after his sin is uncovered).
Seasons or AGES. Scripture says God is NOT a respecter of persons though.
1. Isn't Matt. 8:12 messianic? Consider the context. He's talking with a Gentile, He's referring to Jewish tradition (see Luke 16, Abraham's bosom). It's clear that He's saying many Jews will lose their privileges to the Gentiles.
2. "Sons of the kingdom" also occurs in Matt. 13:38:
and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
But how can we be sure about "sons of the kingdom"? In the former, it may have been referring to the Jews (astray sheep). In the latter, it may be referring to God's sheep (Christians).
You are right about the Messianic view, but that's part of the churches/my/your problem...what's applicable and what isn't.
But the problem with your proposition is that you say eternal torture has no purpose. That would be from your perspective.
I think that is not only from my perspective. What purpose does it serve from anyone's perspective.
Zechariah 14:16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
Scripture is clear that those who are slain by God on that day will never see resurrection. In fact, this is the only time annihilation may have some weight.
Didn't that verse just say 'any nation that was AGAINST Jerusalem will WORSHIP God?' That's what I read anyway.
I did not at all mean OSAS. My belief in an "initially limited, presently expanding to near universal atonement" corresponds with Scripture:
God appointed workers to gather material for His building. The key word is material. Something of value. Surely God considers man valuable, even His apostates (Matt. 18:10-14). But did He release these from their sin when He died? No, He released (Rev. 1:5) His chosen (2 Cor. 5:20-21) to do that work. It is God's pleasure to work through His people (2 Tim. 2:25).
And would you not agree that the church is falling short of his call? If the answer is yes then who is going to be responsible for our shortcomings as the church? I believe God will take up our slack concerning the lost sheep.
Consider John 15:2 and 1 John 5:18. OSAS is only valid if God keeps cleaning a person. But there are times in Scripture where He ceases that activity and the person must return to Him. That is why OSAS is not correct, because it depends on the person's choice in such a circumstance.
What's the verse after 15:2 say though?
JOH 15:2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. This initial cleaning is because of His word and nothing else is mentioned. I think it accomplishes 'Us being in Christ', but has nothing to do with 'Christ being in us'. 'Us being in Christ' is the initial salvation of our spirit which is his work not ours. We couldn't do anything good enough to 'get it' and we can't do anything bad enough to 'loose it'. So I am OSAS for the spirit of man but not for the soul of man.
And 1Joh 5:18 is a OSAS verse IMO. It is a salvation where we are kept by Him, because Christians are obviously still sinning...right?
Have you seen the movie David and Bathsheba? It takes the account quite seriously compared to the other OT movies. Near the ending, there is a scene were David places his hand on the Ark of the Covenant while praying and confessing his sins. He does not die.
Does scripture support that scene in the movie?
See Hebrews 10:22. An appeal to God is by choice, not necessarily forced. See 1 Peter 1:22.
Hebrews 10:22 is talking about believers and the house of God...not the born again salvation of your spirit from my POV.
Read 1Pet in context. It starts out with the salvation WE work out...that being our souls by obedience TO Jesus. Our spirit isn't saved by obedienceTO Jesus but by belief IN Jesus. Verse 23 talks about our spirit's salvation and says it is an INCORRUPTIBLE seed which lives FOR EVER. That is OSAS to me, but it only applies to my spirit and not my soul.
1PE 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Lunch time, I'm quittin.
__________________ HILLSAGE Don't try so hard to shut out the bad, that you’re not letting in the good.
He who only knows 'that which he believes' doesn't even know that.
The biggest obstacle to discovering the truth is not ignorance...it's the illusion of knowledge.
It's just like the dog/pig returning to their vomit/mud. They didn't loose what they were 'born as' did they? Neither does a backsliding Christian loose his 'born again spirit' salvation by committing soul-sick flesh-bucket sin again.
Until he receives a new spirit and a new body (resurrection), he is vulnerable to loss of salvation. Should God suddenly remove His protection (He can do that, like He did with Job), the person is vulnerable.
The beginning is where we start to differ. The resurrection isn't for a new spirit it is for a glorified body. I think we receive a new spirit at the rebirth of our spirit when "WE ARE IN CHRIST".
2CO 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, (he is) A new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
But this is not to be confused with the salvation of our soul where Christ is IN us. GAL 4:19 My little children (born again babies), with whom I am again in travail until Christbe FORMED in you!
BE formed???? Speaking TO children/young CHRISTIANS.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Yep, ashamed but I don't see anything about eternal torture. I do read in 1Cor 3 though about a believer who He was ashamed of so he had to be "SAVED yet though as by FIRE".
I never mentioned eternal torture. That is not what I'm trying to debate.
Hell is loss of well being, privileges, and perfect healing. It doesn't necessarily mean eternal death or eternal torment but it is a loss of something.
I guess I don't know what we're debating then. To me Hell is certainly a loss of something also. But ultimately I think it's a loss of anything that is contrary to the 'kingdom of God' and 'entering into LIFE'. That's why even "Christians" who have spent more time adding "wood hay and stubble" to their walk than "gold silver precious stones" have to be "saved yet as though by fire" (2Cor 3:15). I have no reason to believe that 'the fire of that judgment' above has a purpose that's any different than the fire that unbelievers must go through. The purpose of fire and brimstone is to purge and preserve. I think anyway.
BTW I watched your PRISON URL. I'm not really sure what you wanted me to get out of it. And I'm not sure it isn't 'a bit too comfy' for the prisoners there IMO. Heck, If it weren't for my wifem it sounded like a nice enough place to just 'check out' of the rat race, and go to. But I am admittedly in a bit of a 'funk' of my own right now. Lately when people have asked me "How's the world treating you" I respond with "Just like Jesus said it would, 'In the world you will have tribulation".
I hope yours is a better day.
Hey are we way off topic? Might be time to mosey on if the post size can't be reduced. I'm spending too much time here. Hint hint.
__________________ HILLSAGE Don't try so hard to shut out the bad, that you’re not letting in the good.
He who only knows 'that which he believes' doesn't even know that.
The biggest obstacle to discovering the truth is not ignorance...it's the illusion of knowledge.
Too much post for me to enjoy responding to, but here goes.
Same here.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
I believe God is a consuming fire and in the end ALL will be IN HIM...being dealt with.
Perhaps. I have a trump card against that which I'll unveil shortly.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Seasons or AGES. Scripture says God is NOT a respecter of persons though.
Ah that.
I'm aware of that. But it's clear that He holds some in higher regard than others.
Luke 1:48 “For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave; For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
You are right about the Messianic view, but that's part of the churches/my/your problem...what's applicable and what isn't.
Eh?
Originally Posted by Hillsage
I think that is not only from my perspective. What purpose does it serve from anyone's perspective.
Well either way, it's far too early to make such a conclusion.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Didn't that verse just say 'any nation that was AGAINST Jerusalem will WORSHIP God?' That's what I read anyway.
What translation?
Originally Posted by Hillsage
And would you not agree that the church is falling short of his call? If the answer is yes then who is going to be responsible for our shortcomings as the church? I believe God will take up our slack concerning the lost sheep.
Yes and precisely (I disagree about God being responsible though).
It's almost time for Him to show Himself to the world. We do not disagree about that.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
What's the verse after 15:2 say though?
JOH 15:2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. This initial cleaning is because of His word and nothing else is mentioned. I think it accomplishes 'Us being in Christ', but has nothing to do with 'Christ being in us'. 'Us being in Christ' is the initial salvation of our spirit which is his work not ours. We couldn't do anything good enough to 'get it' and we can't do anything bad enough to 'loose it'. So I am OSAS for the spirit of man but not for the soul of man.
And 1Joh 5:18 is a OSAS verse IMO. It is a salvation where we are kept by Him, because Christians are obviously still sinning...right?
But what about hardening?
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
Since this is the case, then why didn't the Pharisees come to Him? They were unwilling (John 5:40) and their continuous blaspheming was worsening their state of mind (Matt. 12:45).
I think 1 John 5:18 has yet to be experienced in fullest measure. As you've pointed out, Christians still sin after conversion. I attribute this to lack of repentance.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Does scripture support that scene in the movie?
Of course not AFAIK.
But there is an instance in which David brings upon the wrath of God on Israel and God stops His angel from destroying Israel.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Hebrews 10:22 is talking about believers and the house of God...not the born again salvation of your spirit from my POV.
Read 1Pet in context. It starts out with the salvation WE work out...that being our souls by obedience TO Jesus. Our spirit isn't saved by obedienceTO Jesus but by belief IN Jesus. Verse 23 talks about our spirit's salvation and says it is an INCORRUPTIBLE seed which lives FOR EVER. That is OSAS to me, but it only applies to my spirit and not my soul.
1PE 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Lunch time, I'm quittin.
Hebrews 10:19-20 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
God set up the access/means of salvation but we must enter the place to be saved.
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6
Context is irrelevant because 1 Peter 1:2 identifies that obedience:
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
The work of the Spirit is to bring us to the point of obedience. Then it depends on us. Purify yourselves = be sprinkled with His blood = 1 John 3:3
Obedience to Jesus and belief are the same thing: repentance. I can easily provide Scripture if you want.
But it says through the living word of God. Does the word of God abide forever in a man or must it be continuously heard (Rom. 10:17)? You know how when one dies, the mourning loved one calls to him. You know how Jesus called to Lazarus to come forth.
As a matter of fact, I just finished a bag of chips. Lay's barbecue.
__________________ John 8:24 unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Luke 13:3, 5 unless you are repentant, you will... perish.
Matthew 18:3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you... become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Last edited by Jpark; 27th October 2011 at 01:34 PM.
The beginning is where we start to differ. The resurrection isn't for a new spirit it is for a glorified body. I think we receive a new spirit at the rebirth of our spirit when "WE ARE IN CHRIST".
2CO 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, (he is) A new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
But this is not to be confused with the salvation of our soul where Christ is IN us. GAL 4:19 My little children (born again babies), with whom I am again in travail until Christbe FORMED in you!
BE formed???? Speaking TO children/young CHRISTIANS.
Yes I made it clear that the resurrection is for the body.
What I meant was that even with a new spirit, one's body still has the marks of sin. It is actually at death that one can be assured of his salvation. I should have clarified.
Perhaps. I can at least see a distinction.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
I guess I don't know what we're debating then. To me Hell is certainly a loss of something also. But ultimately I think it's a loss of anything that is contrary to the 'kingdom of God' and 'entering into LIFE'. That's why even "Christians" who have spent more time adding "wood hay and stubble" to their walk than "gold silver precious stones" have to be "saved yet as though by fire" (2Cor 3:15). I have no reason to believe that 'the fire of that judgment' above has a purpose that's any different than the fire that unbelievers must go through. The purpose of fire and brimstone is to purge and preserve. I think anyway.
BTW I watched your PRISON URL. I'm not really sure what you wanted me to get out of it. And I'm not sure it isn't 'a bit too comfy' for the prisoners there IMO. Heck, If it weren't for my wifem it sounded like a nice enough place to just 'check out' of the rat race, and go to.
But I am admittedly in a bit of a 'funk' of my own right now. Lately when people have asked me "How's the world treating you" I respond with "Just like Jesus said it would, 'In the world you will have tribulation".
I hope yours is a better day.
Then the disagreement isn't fundamentally differing. Loss of life means death but eternal life isn't just life. It's a better life. Healing. The contrast of that is a worser life. No healing.
But what about burning at the stake? What meaning does that serve other than an unnecessarily long transition to death?
Well, 21 years sentence is majorly/unusually different from other institutions. Just thought it was relevant.
Same here. So many times when I get angry at God and get envious because of circumstances and because I take too much pride in my work and most of the time, get scrutiny and little appreciation. Egotism is difficult to escape from.
Well that's awfully thoughtful of you. Same here.
Originally Posted by Hillsage
Hey are we way off topic? Might be time to mosey on if the post size can't be reduced. I'm spending too much time here. Hint hint.
Yeah maybe. I think it's time I unveil that trump card I mentioned. With that and I'll be off.
__________________ John 8:24 unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Luke 13:3, 5 unless you are repentant, you will... perish.
Matthew 18:3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you... become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
To me Hell is certainly a loss of something also. But ultimately I think it's a loss of anything that is contrary to the 'kingdom of God' and 'entering into LIFE'. That's why even "Christians" who have spent more time adding "wood hay and stubble" to their walk than "gold silver precious stones" have to be "saved yet as though by fire" (2Cor 3:15). I have no reason to believe that 'the fire of that judgment' above has a purpose that's any different than the fire that unbelievers must go through. The purpose of fire and brimstone is to purge and preserve. I think anyway. 
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