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  #71  
Unread 8th November 2011, 05:58 PM
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Agree Response to divorce

I believe you are correct about this thats why I was so distraught over breakup of my marriage. I waited a long time for this and now look what a mess. I believe in marriage and I was married before have had grown children and grandchildren but this was going to be the one I grew old with. I guess that dream is shattered and my trust will be solely on the Lord.

Originally Posted by Simon_Templar View Post
The teaching on divorce in the Church has been the same for 2000 years going back to people who actually spoke Greek and clearly knew the meaning of the words in the New Testament.

This only changed in protestant churches in the last half century or so and it changed not because of better understanding of scripture but because of giving in to the pressures of the culture and the unwillingness of Christians to actually obey Jesus.

Regarding the greek vocabulary and divorce...

Matthew 5:31-32 (KJV)


It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away (GR: Apoluo) his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement (GRL Apostasion): But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away (GR: Apoluo) his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced (GR: Apoluo) committeth adultery.

Same verses in differing translations...

(NIV)
It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

(ESV)
It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

First note... as you can see pretty much every translation agrees that "putting away" is synonymous with divorce. This is because its obvious in the greek text that the terms are all used to refer to the same thing and Apostasion clearly identifies it as a divorce.

Second note, if you were paying attention to the text, you would know that Jewish law forbid "putting away" a wife WITHOUT giving her a bill of divorce! This is precisely why God was angry with the Israelites in the Old Testament who did this. They were breaking the law. Thus the assumption of all law abiding Jews was that to put away (apoluo) a wife was synonymous with divorcing a wife (apostasion) which is exactly what the text says.

In Matthew Jesus only addresses the woman and says that she commits adultery if she remarries (as does the man who marries her)

However in Luke 16:18 Jesus makes clear that this applies to both the man and the woman.

(ESV)
""Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery."

The issue is again re-iterated in Mark 10:2-12

In this particular passage the Pharisees test Jesus. The passage again outlines that under the Law of Moses to put away a wife REQUIRED a writ of divorce. The two are synonymous.
It was not legal or allowed by God to "seperate" without divorce.

Jesus again makes clear that those who divorce commit adultery if they remarry.

The argument has been presented that the greek "apoluo" is different than the greek "lusin" used in 1st Corinthians and that "lusin" refers to divorce, while "apoluo" only refers to seperation without divorce. While this idea is simply not possible under Jewish law as has been shown.. it is also not a valid argument based on the greek.

Apoluo and Lusin have fundamentally the same meaning. They, in fact, come from the same root.

Lusin is a noun meaning "a loosing" or "a setting free"


Apoluo is verb formed from a compound of "apo" meaning away and "luo" meaning "to loose", "to set free" "to let go" etc.

Apoluo is simply the verb form of Lusin. They mean the exact same thing, only one names the event and the other is the action of the event.

The argument about divorce vs seperation is further destroyed earlier in 1st Corinthians chapter 7 when Paul speaks about the issue of divorce between believers and unbelievers. He outright says if the unbeliever seperates and departs, that the believer is not bound. The text is NOT distinguishing between seperation and divorce. It is using the terms synonymously.

The "Pauline" exception given in 1st Corinthians chapter 7 regarding an unbeliever divorcing a believer is the ONLY circumstance in which a Christian is permitted to remarry after a divorce.

The reason for this, which Jesus outlined, is that when believers are married there is a covenental, sacramental bond created by God and that is not disolved by getting a divorce under human law. That sacramental, covenant bond still exists and that is why any believer who divorces and remarries commits adultery. Because in God's eyes they are still bonded to their original spouse.

Paul gives the exception to this because God only creates this covenant, sacramental bond when both parties (husband and wife) enter into the marriage with the intent of actually being joined in that bond.
Thus if one person is an unbeliever, they did not have the intent to enter into that bond and thus the marriage can be disolved by divorce.


Why do you think, when Jesus gave his teaching on divorce, all his disciples said "this is incredibly hard! if this is true it would be better never to get married!"
They didn't say that because Jesus told them they can't just seperate and then pick up a new girl, but they have to actually get a divorce... that was already required by the Law of Moses and they had no problem with that.
what they were shocked and dismayed by was that Jesus essentially told them there is no divorce. Even if you justly seperate (for adultery), you are not divorced because you can not remarry.


In modern terms, the problem is not seperation or even disolving the legal ties... it is the idea that you can remarry at your discretion.


Addendum...

I wanted to add this note. Given the abysmal understanding of marriage in most of the evangelical churches today, it is entirely possible that there are many married christians who got married with no intention of having a real sacramental covenant relationship as Jesus describes. As a result, there are probably more than a few christians whose marriages would fall under the exception catagory described by Paul.. not because they are not believers, but because they never had the intent to enter into a true sacramental marriage covenant.
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  #72  
Unread 8th November 2011, 06:26 PM
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Response to divorce

He was more concerned about his music and "serving god" then our marriage actually though he has been extremely oppressed by his parents and seeks approval from mom and dad on everything if they dont like something even on the outside doesnt agree but on inside whole different ballgame everything revolved around his family

Originally Posted by mrhappy3 View Post
My case is similar - my wife has decided to put the shutters up for whatever reason and then claims to have been "neglected" or "abandoned" - you can't have it both ways - if you are not willing to sit down, talk, seek counselling sensibly, their is not much the other party can do.
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  #73  
Unread 8th November 2011, 06:31 PM
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and refuses to take responsibility he sees everything as a critizism of put down when its not
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  #74  
Unread 8th November 2011, 06:52 PM
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Nice one Oscarr.
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  #75  
Unread 8th November 2011, 08:37 PM
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I don't always think divorce is a result of a person's sin, but that was not what I was refering to, I was addressing the belief that any rule is simply legalism. That is not Biblical, as Jesus rebuked those who think they are free to break any laws, or lawless people.

Originally Posted by Oscarr View Post
It depends on what side of the theological fence you are in terms of whether we are able to make decisions on our own concerning holiness, or whether we are totally helpless (ie: Arminianism/Calvinism). Actually God is not as worried as some of us are over these doctrinal distinctions. He has blessed and used people who hold either theology.

Those who love Jesus have a new heart. This new heart hungers after holiness. But we have this sin nature that trips us up and hinders us much of the time. Paul says that we must keep our bodies under subjection, so there is a part we have to play in order to maintain our walk with the Lord, and to do this, we follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit within us, rather than be in bondage to another human being. But in saying that, if someone you look up to and respect makes you aware of a moral issue that needs to be put right, then the Holy Spirit will confirm that if it comes from God.

If we didn't have a sinful nature, and were able to follow our new hearts; and were able to hear God's voice clearly all the time, Christians would get married to the right partners and would achieve successful marriages. Sadly, this is not the case, and divorce happens, and it is a matter of after falling down, both partners need to get up again and find out God's will for their respective lives even if they cannot be reconciled.

The worst that can happen is divorced people being treated with judgmentalism and legalism, instead of allowing the kindness of God forgive and heal them. Jesus is in the business of saving sinners, divorced people included. Legalism and judgmentalism drives people away from Jesus, but showing them the love of Jesus, draws them to Him where He can forgive, heal, and guide them in His paths of righteousness.

We need to remember: divorce is not the unforgiveable sin.
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  #76  
Unread 8th November 2011, 08:40 PM
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  #77  
Unread 8th November 2011, 08:40 PM
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quoted with permission www.divorcehope.com

“Now the Spirit [of God] expressly says that in latter times [the days we live in now] some will DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies ...FORBIDDING TO MARRY…” (1Timothy 4:1,3).

“Forbidding [someone] to marry” after they have been divorced is a doctrine of the devil. The Bible is not saying that these people who hold to this belief are not true Christians, but that they teach out of ignorance — they don't understand God's heart in the Scriptures. Understanding God's heart only comes from the Holy Spirit revealing Him to us. Whenever we do not understand God's heart in the Scriptures, we have departed from sound doctrine.

This Scripture could not be talking about forbidding to marry in general. Nobody would listen to such nonsense preached. The desire that God put in man to have a companion and sexual partner is too great, especially if they were married before. In order that we don’t fall into “...sexual immorality, let EACH MAN have his own wife, and let EACH WOMAN have her own husband” (1Corinthians 7:2). “[For] IT IS NOT GOOD THAT MAN SHOULD BE ALONE…” (Genesis 2:18a).

The erroneous doctrine of forbidding one to marry after a divorce has been preached and taught in many churches. It has violated the conscience and hearts of those who’ve been divorced, driving them into a constant state of confusion and negatively impacting their lives. The only way for these people to come out of that confused state is to leave the church, and many have done just that. Not only do they leave the church to remarry, they also need to be able to make the right decision to divorce when it’s necessary in order to save themselves and their families before all is destroyed.

In order to understand that there IS marriage after divorce, we will examine the Scriptures in Matthew 19:3-12 focusing on the usage of the Greek word, apoluo. The Greek word apoluo that’s translated “divorce” or “to put away” is a general word. Its primary usage is: to “send” (apoluo) someone home when it’s getting late.11 When two people are leaving each other there is a “separation.” Apoluo is a separation in general, which does not involve the “legal” aspect of a permanent separation like a divorce. The common usage is seen in the Scripture “When it was evening, His disciples came to Him, saying ‘This is a deserted place, and the hour is already late. SEND (apoluo) the multitudes away, that they may go unto the villages and buy themselves food’” (Matthew 14:15). The Greek word apoluo doesn’t have a legal aspect to it. It’s just a common word that means, “I’m going to go” or, “away from, to separate.” Because of our wrong beliefs about divorce, this key word was purposely translated (incorrectly) so it would not conflict with our beliefs.

When used concerning a marriage it means a separation and NOT a divorce. If a spouse separates intending never to return, then the next step comes into play; the spouse obtains a “certificate of divorce.” This is what the confrontation between Jesus and the Pharisees (the religious lawyers of His day) was about in Matthew 19:3-12. The legal question was, “Do you just separate, OR do you separate AND give a certificate of divorce?” The Greek word used for divorce in these Scriptures means, to “send away” or separate from, NOT a finalized legal divorce.

The lawyers of God’s law tested Jesus. Their motive was to justify when they only separated from their wives and remarried without ever getting a divorce. They asked Him if God accepts a separation to get remarried without a divorce certificate for just any reason. Jesus responded that when a male and female come together in a marriage union, “...they are no longer two BUT ONE…” (Matthew 19:6a). Because the couple is still united, He doesn’t want “man” (the marriage partners) to just separate from each other and get remarried without a divorce. A SEPARATION ALONE DOES NOT BREAK THE MARRIAGE UNION. IT TAKES A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE, ALSO. So the question was NOT, “Can a spouse DIVORCE their mate for any reason,” but “Can a spouse get a SEPARATION from their mate for any reason and then remarry while just separated.”

When a husband just leaves his wife for another woman without ever giving her a certificate of divorce, this keeps the wife in limbo. She could not go back to her husband because he doesn’t want her; and she couldn’t “go and become another man’s wife” as Moses commanded because she is not legally divorced (See Deuteronomy 24:1-2). If she did remarry without a legal divorce, she and the man who married her would be committing adultery. This is why Jesus said, “...whoever separates (apoluo) from his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is [just] separated (apoluo) commits adultery” (Matthew 19:9 My Translation).
Because the Pharisees’ hearts were so hard “They said to Him [Jesus], ‘WHY then did Moses COMMAND to give a certificate of divorce AND to put her away [separate]?’” (Matthew 19:7). They agreed with the part of the law that said that you could leave your wife, but they didn’t understand that it was not right to keep their wives from getting remarried. A spouse with a hardened heart will not give the other spouse a divorce. They will want to control the person. A person who truly loves unconditionally will always give you a way out: an option not to love.
So it is with God; He always gives us the choice to not love Him. As we choose to love Him, it’s true love. At times the reason a marriage isn’t a truly unconditional loving marriage is because the partners feel that there is never a way out, if needed. If the marriage partners knew that there was a godly way to escape from a failing marriage it would give the couple the freedom to “choose to love,” even when it’s not convenient.

Jesus said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, PERMITTED you to divorce [separate from] your wives, but from the beginning IT [being separated without a divorce] WAS NOT SO” (Matthew 19:8). Notice in verse seven that Moses COMMANDED them to give a certificate of divorce AND to separate (put away) their wives. But in verse eight, because their hearts were so hardened against their spouse, Moses PERMITTED them to just separate without the husband giving the wife a certificate of divorce. The reason Moses commanded that a certificate of divorce be given was to guarantee that the wife could get remarried. Simply, Moses commanded to give a certificate of divorce AND to separate. But because of the hardness of their hearts, Moses permitted them to separate only. The permission to separate and remarry without a divorce was limited to sexual immorality. If the wife was unfaithful, the husband could leave without ever being “officially divorced” — by giving her a certificate of divorcement, and go take another woman as his wife. But if there was no sexual immorality involved, the husband could NOT separate from his wife without getting a divorce first. If he didn’t get a divorce and went to live with another woman or got remarried, they were committing adultery.

“Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed [for selfish reasons]. Are you loosed [divorced] from a wife? [In my opinion says Paul, the Apostle] do not seek a wife. BUT EVEN IF YOU DO MARRY, YOU HAVE NOT SINNED; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned” (1Corinthians 7:26-28a). Notice that the “virgin” AND the person “loosed [divorced]” are both put in the same category — they have “not sinned” by getting married. BOTH THE PERSON WHO WAS NEVER MARRIED AND THE PERSON WHO WAS DIVORCED ARE WITHOUT SIN IF THEY MARRY.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 tells of a situation where a man married a woman and then divorced her. This woman then married another man. The Scriptures go on to state that if the second marriage ends by her husband writing “...her a certificate of divorce ...OR if the latter husband dies…” (Deuteronomy 24:3,4), she could not remarry the first man she divorced because she had already married someone else. Therefore, if our spouse dies, or if we were divorced, we can get married again. Divorce and death are equal before God. The only stipulation in this Scripture is that if this is the second marriage, we cannot go back to the first spouse and remarry them because we married someone else after we divorced them.

The Hebrew word: shalach is the equivalent of the Greek word: apoluo.
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  #78  
Unread 8th November 2011, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by morsepam619 View Post
I believe you are correct about this thats why I was so distraught over breakup of my marriage. I waited a long time for this and now look what a mess. I believe in marriage and I was married before have had grown children and grandchildren but this was going to be the one I grew old with. I guess that dream is shattered and my trust will be solely on the Lord.
How would you feel if your pastor counselled you and made you aware of the Scriptures that Simon Templar has given? Would you feel that you were being drawn to a loving and kind God and a wonderful Saviour?
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Unread 8th November 2011, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by morsepam619 View Post
He was more concerned about his music and "serving god" then our marriage actually though he has been extremely oppressed by his parents and seeks approval from mom and dad on everything if they dont like something even on the outside doesnt agree but on inside whole different ballgame everything revolved around his family
This seems to have the characteristics of "religious addiction", and has the same behaviour elements as any chemical addiction. His addiction could have come out of his need to establish some type of self esteem and accomplishment. But he has turned to religion instead of Christ. If his faith really was in Christ, he would have seen that his family are very precious and his role to make you feel loved and cared for at all times.

The treatment for religious addiction is basically the same as for any other addiction, but first, there has to be an acceptance of it before anything else can happen.

One of the characteristics is that he feels like a failure, that he has to have the approval of mum and dad, so what does he do? He reinforces his sense of failure by continuing to be in bondage to his parents and to further seek their approval. That way, he validates his sense of failure.

So, he feels that he has failed at marriage. In the same way, he validates his sense of failure by continuing to be a failure at marriage, but he is seeking to be a success at religion because his Christian service and music makes him feel good. In essence, he is trying to win the approval of God, instead of trusting and resting in Christ. But eventually, those will cease to satisfy him as well and will then give him a further sense of failure.

Ultimately, he will sense that he is a failure to God, as well as to his wife and family, as well a failure to his parents. This may, unless there is effective intervention to bring him to Christ, cause him to walk away from God and the church altogether and live the rest of his life in complete despair and depression.

So, this might give you direction in your prayers for him. He needs to have a revelation of what the Gospel really is, and that he needs to be fully introduced to Christ in a personal relationship with Him.
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I was a young man and now I am old and I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread.
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Unread 8th November 2011, 09:54 PM
morsepam619's Avatar
Non-denominational Spiritfilled

Gender: Female Faith: Pentecostal Party: CA-Conservatives Country: United States Member For 2 Years
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Join Date: 8th November 2011
Location: Orlando, FL
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morsepam619 is on a distinguished road
[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] you have pegged him to a tee He is a chemical addiction actually to pain killers due to herniated disc hes got a lot of health issues not just back, he has just been diagnoses Diabetes II coronary artery disese and instead of wanting to be healed he wants the SSI that really shocked me. man oh man is that a prophecy or what wow ow wow I have told him that very thing but he still thinks hes serving the Lord and for you telling me this would be contrued as gossip by him
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