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  #1  
Old 3rd October 2011, 08:41 PM
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Is there disagreement with "leadership" or just how it's normally defined?

Dreamer explained this well (IMO) in the other thread...

I'm actually not against the idea of male "leadership" in a marriage. My interpretation of how that role should look, however, is different than others'. Just because I don't believe that a h should tell a wife what to do (and that she should accept being told what to do) or have the "final say" in all major decisions doesn't mean I don't believe a wife is subject to her husband...that certain things don't flow to her through him. I DO believe that the husband has more responsibility than the wife for "setting the tone" of the household spiritually. As Psalms described, when he is not where he should be spiritually, the wife will be affected...it trickles down to her. So FTR...yes, I brought it up, yes, I believe it's related to the topic, and no, I'm not "against" male leadership. I just interpret what that means a little differently than some
I hope you don't mind my quoting of your post. I agree with this perspective. It both "fits" with the Bible and my experience. When I read that "man is head of the wife"....I take that to mean "source of life"...as in "where the nourishment comes from". Isn't that like Christ? Another way to describe it is....."God supplies---->>husband receives and is able to give love------>>wife receives and able to give love."

I don't mean that we as wives cannot receive God's love on our own.....but, IME....there are issues if the husband is "in the way" of that.....almost intercepting it--taking away from the love God is giving. (As I said in the other thread....I'm still not completely settled on this....still pondering....processing).

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 3rd October 2011, 09:13 PM
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I am from a very fundamentalist, take the Bible literally background (not in childhood, but in my adult life since I became an evangelical christian in 1979). Though I have relaxed some, for me there remains no way around the fact that the Bible has differing instructions for husbands and wives. For ages, the way I heard the teachings about this and the way I understood it was very demeaning to me as a woman. But then about 7 years ago when I started to go deeper with the Lord, He revealed Himself to me in ways that clarified His character and His love for me.

Being “SUBJECT TO HIM [Christ] in EVERYTHING” Eph 5:24 is not about a hierarchal institution, demandingness, obedience, duty, performance, and punishment but about connection, love, relationship, safety, and freedom and yes, even a kind of “control” but a “control” which is “GOOD news”! A control which is organic in nature, tender, gracious, liberating, uplifting, and joyful with no resemblance whatsoever to an authoritarian power grab.

For a Christian wife, being “subject to her husband in everything” may or may not resemble her experience being “subject to Christ in everything” depending on how much her husband reflects Christlikeness in the manner in which he treats her (which is the thrust of Paul’s teaching directed to husbands in context of Ephesians 5).

When certain men speak of husband leadership, it sounds very loving to me, very Christlike- (McScribe for example here).

But I've never experienced it personally in my marriage of 29 years and I have decided its an unrealistic expectation of my husband. Not that he won't but that he CAN'T.

As a recovering practitioner of QF, I read this blog sometimes. Some of the women have rejected their faith because of the abuses they lived under, but KR Wordgazer is a Christian and wrote an article which I think has some interesting things to ponder. I'm going to post a clip for you because you might like to consider these if your husband is like mine and CAN'T be an unselfish "leader" (my husband has empathic failure, can't identify with anyone else's feelings- similar to a form of Autism but he's highly intelligent and pretty functional)
. He was a micromanager but I don't tolerate/enable that anymore.

What a husband needs is for his wife to become that face-to-face strong aid that God originally designed her to be. This means seeing yourself as his co-leader, stepping up to shoulder with him the responsibilities of leading the home and children, side by side.

This may surprise him at first, but many men, once they experience it, will gratefully welcome the co-leader relationship. Sometimes a man, feeling the burden of being the sole leader in the family, fears failure and feels alone, because as they say, “it’s lonely at the top.” He shrinks back or slacks off, coasting on his wife’s subordinate service and submission as she desperately tries to do all the work while still making him feel like “king of the home.“ The result can be a man who secretly despises himself and resents his wife. The combination of taking care of him and treating him like royalty (or a spoiled child) can be extremely unproductive– for both of you.


At other times a husband might become a micro-manager, feeling that the sole responsibility for everyone’s spiritual well-being is on his shoulders. Letting all the responsibility rest on him may seem right, but you’re not doing him any favors. He needs an “ezer kenedgo.” He needs the two of you to be adults together, facing the adult responsibilities together. And he needs to let the spiritual well-being of the family rest where it belongs– squarely on the shoulders of Christ Himself. A mere human man cannot be anyone’s savior or sanctifier. He must let God be God in the lives of his loved ones. Your husband needs to be allowed to be merely human, but also be held accountable to be a responsible adult. (source)
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Old 3rd October 2011, 09:30 PM
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Thank you for sharing all that, Ps63. This makes so much sense to me:

For now, suffice it to say that the idea that God created everything to fit within a hierarchical chain of authority, is actually a pagan concept incorporated into Christianity sometime in the early centuries after the Resurrection. If you read Genesis 1, it speaks of the man and woman having dominion over the rest of Creation, but it does not speak of the man having dominion over the woman until after the Fall.
What wasn't making sense in regards to this idea of "authority" is how man and woman become one in marriage, but man is considered to have "authority". How can you have both--a heirarchy & oneness??.....it didn't work in my mind. Now I see why.....because it's really contradictory to God's word.
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Old 3rd October 2011, 09:42 PM
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What about Y'shua and the Father? They are echad (one), yet on earth Y'shua submitted to the Father, even when it was most difficult. "Let this cup pass, yet not my will but thine be done."

Or let's take the Bride (church) and Christ for example. We belong to Him, we are bought with a price, He loved us and laid down His life for us. Yet He wants us for Himself because of His extravagant love. He chose us to be His bride, how exciting!! And we said 'yes'. Yes to His love, but also yes to His leadership, to honor and obey Him. We don't
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Old 3rd October 2011, 09:44 PM
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Ugh, this new computer is so hard to use!! I just had a whole reply and down it went!

Anyways, quick recap of what I deleted by accident: Bride/Christ analogy as paul sets forth. Christ loved us, set His eyes on us to be His bride. he paid for us, laid down His life for us. He chose us, we said yes. Yes to His extravagant love, and also yes to his leaderhsip. That's how I see it as an example of marraige too. After all, isnt marriage a 'type' of relationship with Him?

Oh oops, it DID post!
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Old 3rd October 2011, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mkgal1 View Post
Thank you for sharing all that, Ps63. This makes so much sense to me:



What wasn't making sense in regards to this idea of "authority" is how man and woman become one in marriage, but man is considered to have "authority". How can you have both--a heirarchy & oneness??.....it didn't work in my mind. Now I see why.....because it's really contradictory to God's word.
Quite some time ago, I looked at Genesis 1:24-26 (any English version of your choosing dominion=authority) and it jumped right out at me. So simple and clear and God never retracted it. It's still His will.

It reminds me of "the emperor has no clothes"...



You need NO theological credentials to see it! To the contrary, theological credentials appear to have the ability to make people blind.






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Old 3rd October 2011, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Psalm63 View Post


It reminds me of "the emperor has no clothes"...





You need NO theological credentials to see it! To the contrary, theological credentials appear to have the ability to make people blind.






Absolutely. Just as Galatians 5:7 says:


You were doing so well. Who stopped you from being influenced by the truth?
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Old 3rd October 2011, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JRSut1000 View Post
What about Y'shua and the Father? They are echad (one), yet on earth Y'shua submitted to the Father, even when it was most difficult. "Let this cup pass, yet not my will but thine be done."

Or let's take the Bride (church) and Christ for example. We belong to Him, we are bought with a price, He loved us and laid down His life for us. Yet He wants us for Himself because of His extravagant love. He chose us to be His bride, how exciting!! And we said 'yes'. Yes to His love, but also yes to His leadership, to honor and obey Him. We don't
Yes....but, that choice was left up to Christ, and He was fully human as well. From how I understand it....the prayer in the garden was Christ bringing His humanity under the will of the Father. It gives us a perfect example of how we are to truly desire God's will--not our own, and demonstrates that it's possible.

He (Jesus) later said, "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." We have the authority of our own will. Just as Ps63 explained here we have freedom of conscience.
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Old 4th October 2011, 09:14 AM
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We have a mistaken idea of how to relate to one another in many ways. For example we put too much on our pastors and ministers when we don't study scripture for ourselves and take up our own spiritual responsibilities and moral responsibilities. There was a time when the average Christian was illiterate or semi literate and lacked access to scripture, and of course there was a time when on top of that there was no "New Testament" but a bunch of letters and testimonies. It's different now, we have tons of stuff we can look at, every translation under the sun. So the Word hasn't changed but we have, but only in the sense that we have learned more and had more available. Our essential nature hasn't.

In the same way marital relations have changed in the way that they basically work for many societies, but the Word has not essentially changed. I think it still has the radical message that we are all precious in the sight of God, and that it is on that basis that we relate as a married couple. That as Jesus leads, men are to lead, and as the church submits, women are to submit. Unfortunately this is distorted. Jesus in the minds of many still today is a Master and people go through routines of worship as though he is an Emperor in a spiritual realm rather than our saviour who is also our friend and teacher. So of course then if a man is to lead like Christ he must command and punish. Same reasoning applies to submission. So to understand biblical things we need to look at how Christ actually acts and what meaning can be put to what he actually says.

So if you follow this and see Jesus constantly encouraging his followers and in fact not berating them so much for disobedience but for not having faith, if you look at his generosity, constant example of humility before God, his anger without sin, his truthfulness, healing and power before evil, what kind of leadership is that?

If you look at the disciples increasing gaining of wisdom, humility before God, increasing love for the truth, humility before God, their own increasing willingness to take risks in the name of faith, what kind of submission is that ? How do we see them submitting to Christ?
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Old 4th October 2011, 09:41 AM
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Much of what I read about leadership within church circles is little more than a repeat of non Christian (ie fleshly) principles. Christian leadership is a radical reversal of all other patterns.

Matt 20:24-28 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
NIV
I have bolded the upside down leadership Jesus taught. That verse has echoes of Is 53. The chapter begins:

Isa 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? NIV
The arm of the Lord is God's royal approval and support. The answer is in the following verses, the suffering servant. Then we see this:
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. NIV

It is the suffering self sacrificing servant who receives the King's favour. The Jewish people were looking for a military Messiah, someone to overthrow the hated Romans. They wanted an old style God, a warrior king. Thus they missed Jesus.

Paul has a similar thought.
Col 1:15-20 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. NIV

In Revelation, a letter written to encourage Christian facing persecution by the Roman Empire it is a slain lamb who overcomes:
Rev 5:6-12 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song:

"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth." NIV

When leadership is equated with 'being the boss' we do not have a biblical understanding of it.

John
NZ

Last edited by Johnnz; 4th October 2011 at 09:46 AM.
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