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Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.

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  #31  
Old 5th September 2011, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Notedstrangeperson View Post
I doubt many people - creationist or evolutionist - would agree with your arguments. The question isn't whether we can tell how an animal lived from it's skeletal remains, obviously we can. We can do so by examining it's anatomy.

Consider for example this extract from an article written by Creationist Dr. David Menton for AnswersInGenesis:
The most eagerly sought after evidence in fossil “hominids” is any anatomical feature that suggests bipedality (the ability to walk on two legs). Humans walk in a bipedal fashion (as do birds and kangaroos), so any evidence of bipedality in fossil apes is considered by evolutionists to be compelling evidence for human ancestry.
Both evolutionists and creationists generally agree that autralopithicus walked upright, judging by the way the femur connects to the hip. Evolutionists however say that this is evidence that autralopithicus was a human ancestor, while creationists say that many other creatures also walk on two legs, like birds and kangaroos.

So - same anatomical traits, different conclusions.

Sorry to keep repeating myself, but what traits do creationists think a creature would need in order to be considered an 'ape-man'?
OK. Try this: We need to find something that a human can do, but a chimp can not do (I don't like the ape-man in your question. If you can find the trait, then he is simply a man). Just by looking at the skeletons, I don't think you can find that. Anatomy can not answer that question.
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  #32  
Old 5th September 2011, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
You are welcome.

But, how would it help?
Because the pro-lifers think that no mental capability is required to be human.
  #33  
Old 5th September 2011, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Juvenissun
We need to find something that a human can do, but a chimp can not do (I don't like the ape-man in your question. If you can find the trait, then he is simply a man).
Ah, now that answers my question: are you saying that any 'ape-man' who displays a uniquely human trait is automatically human?
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  #34  
Old 6th September 2011, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Notedstrangeperson View Post
Ah, now that answers my question: are you saying that any 'ape-man' who displays a uniquely human trait is automatically human?
Tricky question for a person like me who don't know much about anthropology.

How about say "yes"?
  #35  
Old 6th September 2011, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by chris4243 View Post
Because the pro-lifers think that no mental capability is required to be human.
So, if a fetus does not think, it is not a human. Right?

But, what about that very particular fetus WILL BECOME a human?
A seed is not a tree. But if you killed the seed, you kill that potential tree.
A child is not a hero. But if you kill that child, you eliminate a future hero.
  #36  
Old 6th September 2011, 07:41 AM
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Before this thread gets shut down, please note that abortion is off-topic here and discussion of it is against the rules.
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Old 6th September 2011, 10:54 AM
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Chimp skeleton:


Human skeleton:

Look at the skulls, the ribcage, the relative lengths of arms and legs. Oh, check out those feet! Both chimps and people have opposable thumbs. but chimps got opposable big toes, too! And who has the tail bone?
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  #38  
Old 6th September 2011, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
So, if a fetus does not think, it is not a human. Right?

But, what about that very particular fetus WILL BECOME a human?
A seed is not a tree. But if you killed the seed, you kill that potential tree.
A child is not a hero. But if you kill that child, you eliminate a future hero.
Is not but can potentially become. I totally agree with that. Similarly, the skeleton that used to be but no longer is. Moreover, scientists can tell the difference between human and chimp skeletons and between human and chimp fetuses (the latter may require DNA test). From the pictures that aisy_Day shared, us laypeople can tell the difference between chimp and human skeletons even with no training and low resolution pictures.
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Old 6th September 2011, 05:55 PM
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(Leave the abortion debates for another thread)

Originally Posted by juvenissun
Tricky question for a person like me who don't know much about anthropology.

How about say "yes"?
In which case many hominids have unique human traits not found in other apes. No modern ape for example is bipedal, but australopithicus was.

That said, I doubt many anthropologists would consider australopithicus "human". They were human ancestors certainly, but at this stage they were merely upright apes. Like chimpanzees they had small brains (ave. cranial capacity 400 cm), long arms, and are thought to have had fur.

Basically they were apes with traits which - today - are unique to humans.
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  #40  
Old 6th September 2011, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by aisy_Day View Post
Chimp skeleton:


Human skeleton:

Look at the skulls, the ribcage, the relative lengths of arms and legs. Oh, check out those feet! Both chimps and people have opposable thumbs. but chimps got opposable big toes, too! And who has the tail bone?
And by looking at them, how do you know which one evolved into the other? The chimp structure is stronger and is more agile in motion. So may be it is the human who evolved into chimp.

Or, this one is better: how do you know human is not just another chimp? We can add muscle and skin to the human skeleton, and finish it with hair all over the body. What is wrong with that model? Furthermore, it may be debatable if we should put hair on the skin. But could we see that one can raise fire, but the other one can not?
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brain size, hominids, human evolution


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