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Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.

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  #21  
Old 4th September 2011, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Notedstrangeperson View Post
Thanks for the replies but no-one has yet answered by questions. Saying we cannot tell who is an ape and who is a human unless we see them in the flesh is rather short-sighted - we can tell a great deal about extinct creatures by their bones, especially if we are able to extract their DNA.

If you found an unidentified skeleton, what features would they need in order for Creationists to consider them 'ape-men'? For example -

Would they have large, human-like brains and an ape-like body?
Or would they have a human-like body and a small, ape-like brain?
They will not want to get tied down in specifics - because that is always when they have to run away. Just like the definition of "kind" - you can never get a cast iron definition out of them.
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  #22  
Old 5th September 2011, 08:30 AM
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Hi NSP,

You asked: Would they have large, human-like brains and an ape-like body?
Or would they have a human-like body and a small, ape-like brain?

I think the answer has been given you just haven't understood it. Skeletal remains give us no definitive explanation of the type of life that the skeleton once supported. We can postulate that a skeleton with a slightly different measurement of some standard would possibly indicate some difference in the creature that once used that skeleton to support their body, but nothing concrete. As much as some want to claim that they can. It is the 'seeing' the full creature and how it lived, did it speak in a language and did it grow and harvest its' food. Did the creature that once used the skeleton we are looking at have the soul and spirit of man or animal? These questions cannot be answered with any accuracy by skeletal examination.

All we can conclude from skeletal examination is that there does seem to be a difference in skeletal structure, but even today, men and women from different races and nationalities of men, have varying, especially skull, configurations. Mexican men, and I mean no disrespect to any Mexican, are generally of shorter stature than European men. Some believe that this is a dietary difference and it may well be, but then we can surely also understand that changes found in exumed skeletal evidence may also be explained by dietary differences.

So, the answer, from my perspective is that there really isn't much that we can conclude from just skeletal remains about the actual life of the creature that once was supported by the skeleton beyond the particulars of body dimensions.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
  #23  
Old 5th September 2011, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by miamited View Post
Hi NSP,

You asked: Would they have large, human-like brains and an ape-like body?
Or would they have a human-like body and a small, ape-like brain?

I think the answer has been given you just haven't understood it. Skeletal remains give us no definitive explanation of the type of life that the skeleton once supported. We can postulate that a skeleton with a slightly different measurement of some standard would possibly indicate some difference in the creature that once used that skeleton to support their body, but nothing concrete. As much as some want to claim that they can. It is the 'seeing' the full creature and how it lived, did it speak in a language and did it grow and harvest its' food. Did the creature that once used the skeleton we are looking at have the soul and spirit of man or animal? These questions cannot be answered with any accuracy by skeletal examination.

All we can conclude from skeletal examination is that there does seem to be a difference in skeletal structure, but even today, men and women from different races and nationalities of men, have varying, especially skull, configurations. Mexican men, and I mean no disrespect to any Mexican, are generally of shorter stature than European men. Some believe that this is a dietary difference and it may well be, but then we can surely also understand that changes found in exumed skeletal evidence may also be explained by dietary differences.

So, the answer, from my perspective is that there really isn't much that we can conclude from just skeletal remains about the actual life of the creature that once was supported by the skeleton beyond the particulars of body dimensions.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
In other words, someone could show you every single of the "missing links" and you'd be like, dur those are just skeletons.
  #24  
Old 5th September 2011, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by miamited View Post
I think the answer has been given you just haven't understood it. Skeletal remains give us no definitive explanation of the type of life that the skeleton once supported.
This is patently not true. A skeleton cannot tell you everything but it can tell you a great deal.
So, the answer, from my perspective is that there really isn't much that we can conclude from just skeletal remains about the actual life of the creature that once was supported by the skeleton beyond the particulars of body dimensions.
Which explains why you are not a paleontologist or anthropologist I guess.
  #25  
Old 5th September 2011, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by miamited View Post
Hi kerrmetric,

He means that you can't tell so much difference between skeletal remains of a chimp or a human if all you have to go by is the skeletal remains. It's not until you flesh out the bones and see them alive, one covered with hair and swinging from the trees eating bananas and enjoying playing with his sexual organs and hearing him making all kinds of strange sounds from his mouth, and the other dressed in a pair of coveralls working behind a plow drawn by a pair of oxen and laying out neat furrows and planting seed and caring for it until a crop is grown and then he harvests the crop and makes bread and food for his table in his kitchen where the soft electric light glows and his family gathers around to hold hands and pray and give thanks to God for the bountiful blessing that He has provided for them, that you really understand the difference between the two skeletons.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
Hey, thank you very much for doing the explanation for me.
  #26  
Old 5th September 2011, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
Hey, thank you very much for doing the explanation for me.
But that explanation is incorrect.
  #27  
Old 5th September 2011, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Notedstrangeperson View Post
Thanks for the replies but no-one has yet answered by questions. Saying we cannot tell who is an ape and who is a human unless we see them in the flesh is rather short-sighted - we can tell a great deal about extinct creatures by their bones, especially if we are able to extract their DNA.

If you found an unidentified skeleton, what features would they need in order for Creationists to consider them 'ape-men'? For example -

Would they have large, human-like brains and an ape-like body?
Or would they have a human-like body and a small, ape-like brain?
You did not hear what I said. Of course we can tell chimp skeletons from human skeletons by a careful study (I don't think anyone, includes me, who does not study biology, can do it easily). But if we can see chimp and human alive, then we can easily, and really tell the differences.

What it means is: the study of skeletons can only see a small part of the original life. We have similar skeleton as chimps. So, our living habits, movements, etc. etc. are all very similar to that of chimps. That is what we can see from the study of skeletons. But what can NOT be seen from skeletons, is the part of more critical differences between us and chimps. That information will be lost when the flesh disappeared. In other words, there is simply no way to tell that a chimp is not human-like by examining its skeleton.

So, the very specific answer to your question is: No, just by the skeletons, we do not know if an animal is human-like of not. How could you find out if a dinosaur could "think" as we do? In one of the Jurassic Park movie, those dinosaurs are struggling to retrieve their eggs from human. That is a very human-like behavior. Do you think it is real? Can you tell if they were able to do that by looking at their bones?
  #28  
Old 5th September 2011, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by juvenissun View Post
You did not hear what I said. Of course we can tell chimp skeletons from human skeletons by a careful study (I don't think anyone, includes me, who does not study biology, can do it easily). But if we can see chimp and human alive, then we can easily, and really tell the differences.

What it means is: the study of skeletons can only see a small part of the original life. We have similar skeleton as chimps. So, our living habits, movements, etc. etc. are all very similar to that of chimps. That is what we can see from the study of skeletons. But what can NOT be seen from skeletons, is the part of more critical differences between us and chimps. That information will be lost when the flesh disappeared. In other words, there is simply no way to tell that a chimp is not human-like by examining its skeleton.

So, the very specific answer to your question is: No, just by the skeletons, we do not know if an animal is human-like of not. How could you find out if a dinosaur could "think" as we do? In one of the Jurassic Park movie, those dinosaurs are struggling to retrieve their eggs from human. That is a very human-like behavior. Do you think it is real? Can you tell if they were able to do that by looking at their bones?
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  #29  
Old 5th September 2011, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by miamited
So, the answer, from my perspective is that there really isn't much that we can conclude from just skeletal remains about the actual life of the creature that once was supported by the skeleton beyond the particulars of body dimensions.
Originally Posted by juvenissun
What it means is: the study of skeletons can only see a small part of the original life. We have similar skeleton as chimps. So, our living habits, movements, etc. etc. are all very similar to that of chimps. That is what we can see from the study of skeletons. But what can NOT be seen from skeletons, is the part of more critical differences between us and chimps. That information will be lost when the flesh disappeared. In other words, there is simply no way to tell that a chimp is not human-like by examining its skeleton.
I doubt many people - creationist or evolutionist - would agree with your arguments. The question isn't whether we can tell how an animal lived from it's skeletal remains, obviously we can. We can do so by examining it's anatomy.

Consider for example this extract from an article written by Creationist Dr. David Menton for AnswersInGenesis:
The most eagerly sought after evidence in fossil “hominids” is any anatomical feature that suggests bipedality (the ability to walk on two legs). Humans walk in a bipedal fashion (as do birds and kangaroos), so any evidence of bipedality in fossil apes is considered by evolutionists to be compelling evidence for human ancestry.
Both evolutionists and creationists generally agree that autralopithicus walked upright, judging by the way the femur connects to the hip. Evolutionists however say that this is evidence that autralopithicus was a human ancestor, while creationists say that many other creatures also walk on two legs, like birds and kangaroos.

So - same anatomical traits, different conclusions.

Sorry to keep repeating myself, but what traits do creationists think a creature would need in order to be considered an 'ape-man'?
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Old 5th September 2011, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chris4243 View Post
Do you mind if I quote this in the next abortion debate I participate in?
You are welcome.

But, how would it help?
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