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Spirit Filled / Charismatic Debate (READ ONLY) A subforum where WOF and non-WOF may discuss their different theological ideas.

 
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  #21  
Unread 30th August 2011, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dkbwarrior View Post
Actually, that was so good, I think I am going to send Leroy a check.

Peace...
I am glad I could help you decide to do this, YHWH will have you account for your actions in the day His Son judges His people. You might as well send a check to Creflo to, he was right beside Leroy and his worldly display of lusting for mammon.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (1 Timothy 3:2-3, KJV)

Let's just pretend this isn't in our bible, OK?
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  #22  
Unread 30th August 2011, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by dkbwarrior View Post
Although, I'm not sure how showing a preacher being excited about the subject they are preaching on has to do with the OP, (I know tallen, you don't care about the OP, all you care about is the opportunity to mock and scorn that with which you disagree).
Originally Posted by Tallen View Post
Here is what the scripture says:

But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. (Titus 2:1-2, KJV)
So now even getting excited when you preach is a sin according to you? Any more laws you wish to put on the church of Christ?

Actually, you sound like someone else from scripture, who was it?.................Ooooooooooohhhhhhh, I rememnber:

14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
16And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
20Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
21And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
22And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
23Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.
-2 Samuel 6:14-16, 20-23

But as I said, your lack of christian charity notwithstanding, let us get back to the OP.

What the OP said is this:

Originally Posted by Oscarr
The Prosperity doctrine teaches that those who have faith in God will become wealthy, have the best of material things and life will be sweet and comfortable.
Until such time as someone can show me where a well known prosperity teacher that I esteem has ever said any thing like this, I declare this to be a false witness.

I have never heard anyone say that those that have faith in God will become wealthy. Lots of poeple have faith in God. But not all believe the promises of God regarding finances.

However, I have heard people say that meditating on, confessing and believing the promises of God regarding prosperity can bring wealth and riches. It is a very different thing.

I have never heard anyone say that life will be sweet and comfortable. In fact, was just listening to a Kenneth Hagin sermon on healing last week at work (I play those pesky WOF preachers at work for my employees to listen too; they don't all like it, but I own the business, so what can they say), and he said that he can gaurantee that if you start believing the promises of God you are not going to "float through life on flowery beds of ease". Trial and temptations and persecutions come, but we can be assured that if we hold fast the confession of our faith without wavering, He is faithful that promised, and He will bring it to pass. Bad stuff will come, but God will bring us out the other side. This is taught by every so-called "prosperity teacher" that I have ever listened too.

This is what I have heard. Creflo Dollar said the same thing this morning on his daily show. (I have the week off, so I caught him). He said that everyone talks about the confession and the possession, but they forget to talk about the process between the too. When you have to hold fast your confession in the face of circumstances that seem to be saying just the opposite of what one is believing.

No-one says that life will be sweet and comfortable.

Of that you can be certain. Until he proves his initial premise to be true, and not a false witness, (which he cannot, because it is a false witness), then all he will find here is a brick wall. Of course, I'm sure he will find an amen corner in all those who enjoy the mocking of their brethren, even if it is mocking based upon false a false witness. I suppose that the opportunity to belittle others is much more appealing than the truth.

Peace...
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  #23  
Unread 30th August 2011, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Oscarr View Post
The Prosperity doctrine teaches that those who have faith in God will become wealthy, have the best of material things and life will be sweet and comfortable.

Note that Baal was and still is the pagan god of fertility and prosperity. This is was the sin of Israel. They had a faith in God, but they also worshipped Baal to ensure that they were able to have good harvests and healthy families. They put material wealth before daily trust in the providence and care of God, as they did in the desert before they reached the Promised Land.

So, it can be argued that the present day Prosperity Doctrine is merely a modern form of Baal worship, and the same judgment that happened to the Baal worshippers of Israel, may very well happen to those who subscribe to the Prosperity doctrine.
Dear Oscarr, i have only one question for you;
who was it that King Solomon prayed to-- to Baal or to God. What did he pray for, and what did he receive?

King Solomon by anyone's estimation was the richest man ever to live. if his life doesn't show the prosperity doctrine, and God's pleasure in giving him the prosperity, then whose does?
and if prosperity is so wrong, then how shall we judge the prosperity of God, who owns the cattle on a thousand hills and calls heaven His throne and earth His footstool?

it is not prosperity itself that is the problem. It's just like any other gift--it's all in how you use it.
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Last edited by pdudgeon; 30th August 2011 at 08:04 PM.
  #24  
Unread 31st August 2011, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by pdudgeon View Post
King Solomon by anyone's estimation was the richest man ever to live.
Naa..., read the story again. He accumalated the wealth as Israel's king, for Israel. It wasn't his personal wealth. Israel became a prosperous nation under his, leadership. YHWH blessed the nation because of his prayer. Solomon appointed 12 overseers of this wealth and forced labor of the Israelites to continue to build it. The overseers were responsible for using the wealth properly, for each was accountable for 1/12 of the year to see that the people had provision, to provide food for Solomon's house and all those who attended the kings business. Solomon was paid a yearly amount out of that wealth total wealth. Did you get that? He was paid yearly by those that were appointed to oversee the nations treasure. This was a hefty sum of money granted, but it didn't make him the richest man ever to live.

Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold, (1 Kings 10:14, KJV)

He was paid 666 talents. Hmmm..., a familiar number, I wonder the meaning of that?

I wonder if the gold in Fort Knox is Obama's personal wealth? After all he is the king over it. And he is also like one of the successor king's of Israel. Who, because of their ways contrary to the Law of YHWH, had lost the wealth that Solomon had gathered.
  #25  
Unread 31st August 2011, 08:40 AM
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Aside from you ad hominem and obfuscation, what does the scripture say about the leaders of the church? The Apostle was clear. Consider carefully:

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (1 Timothy 3:2-4, KJV)

Now tell me, was the man you "esteem", Creflo Dollar, acting according to these instructions of the Apostle when he was running through mammon and praising wealth with his wofist buddy? And don't obfuscate by telling me David danced unless you want to tell me that these fellows in the video were dancing because of the mammon. That is were their joy was coming from, that's why they were running through the money like children running through a mud puddle. Let's concentrate on the Apostle's instruction to the church leaders.

So now even getting excited when you preach is a sin according to you?
Nope, you are obscurring the point and trying to misrepresent what was said. A typical wofist tactic and expected. In fact, this is the way wofist think, restate what someone said in a ridiculous manner to disparage what was said. Thank you for that demonstration. And it is noted how you have avoided what the Apostle said.

Any more laws you wish to put on the church of Christ?
You know, this is almost funny. Who wrote 1 Timothy and put those laws on the leaders of the church? It was me. And you tactic is once again noted. Instead of realizing what the Apostle said, and looking at the behavior of the leaders of the wof religion, you would rather suggest something that I never did and bear false witness for your religion. It is a powerful deception when a person is willing to disobey YHWH for his own ways.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (Exodus 20:16, KJV)

Blessings.
  #26  
Unread 31st August 2011, 10:19 AM
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Tallen you are absolutely going to wear yourself out fighting WOF.

I would suggest for your own health that you find something in life to do that benefits you. Spending all your time fighting something you are not going to defeat is wasting your life.

Go outside sit in the shade and just enjoy the life God has for you today.

Relax, those of us who are wrong in what we believe Jesus will correct sooner of later.

He is the Head. Therefore we answer sooner or later to Him.
  #27  
Unread 31st August 2011, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Optimax View Post
Tallen you are absolutely going to wear yourself out fighting WOF.

I would suggest for your own health that you find something in life to do that benefits you. Spending all your time fighting something you are not going to defeat is wasting your life.

Go outside sit in the shade and just enjoy the life God has for you today.

Relax, those of us who are wrong in what we believe Jesus will correct sooner of later.

He is the Head. Therefore we answer sooner or later to Him.
Well..., since I'm not fighting wof, I guess I'll never wear out. I would rather be doing what YHWH leads me to do, defend His word and the faith, than what people want me to do.

You do want me to fulfill the calling of YHWH on my life don't you O? BTW, how do you think He is going to correct those of you (us) in error?
  #28  
Unread 31st August 2011, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tallen View Post
Naa..., read the story again. He accumalated the wealth as Israel's king, for Israel. It wasn't his personal wealth. Israel became a prosperous nation under his, leadership. YHWH blessed the nation because of his prayer. Solomon appointed 12 overseers of this wealth and forced labor of the Israelites to continue to build it. The overseers were responsible for using the wealth properly, for each was accountable for 1/12 of the year to see that the people had provision, to provide food for Solomon's house and all those who attended the kings business. Solomon was paid a yearly amount out of that wealth total wealth. Did you get that? He was paid yearly by those that were appointed to oversee the nations treasure. This was a hefty sum of money granted, but it didn't make him the richest man ever to live.

Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold, (1 Kings 10:14, KJV)

He was paid 666 talents. Hmmm..., a familiar number, I wonder the meaning of that?

I wonder if the gold in Fort Knox is Obama's personal wealth? After all he is the king over it. And he is also like one of the successor king's of Israel. Who, because of their ways contrary to the Law of YHWH, had lost the wealth that Solomon had gathered.
sorry, but you are comparing apples with oranges.

kingdoms are run quite differently than what we are used to.
Solomon was a king.
he ruled over a kingdom.
everything and everyone in a kingdom belongs to the king.
not to the state.

those overseers that you mentioned owed their jobs to the king.
The skill and general ability of kings and the wealth of their kingdoms is measured by their battle-worthiness,the state of their defenses, the well-being of their people,the productiveness of their land, and their quality of life.
And it is all in the hands of the king.

What the Bible describes as King Solomon's monarchy is the first definition found in Websters;
Definition of MONARCHY
1: undivided rule or absolute sovereignty by a single person
wht you are describing is the second definition of a monarchy:
2: a nation or state having a monarchical government
and what everyone is used to as a monarchy is the third definition, which is quite a different animal.
3: a government having a hereditary chief of state with life tenure and powers varying from nominal to absolute
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Last edited by pdudgeon; 31st August 2011 at 09:25 PM.
  #29  
Unread 31st August 2011, 10:11 PM
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Sorry pd, Solomon was a a ruler in a Suzerainty, a ruler under a higher authority. Solomon was not the sovereign over this vassal state, but ruled by covenant under the higher authority, YHWH.

He didn't own the wealth, but sat over it to oversee what wealth the Sovereign brought to his treasures. Solomon wasn't the owner, he was the steward.

Sorry you missed this important bit of information.
  #30  
Unread 31st August 2011, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Tallen View Post
Sorry pd, Solomon was a a ruler in a Suzerainty, a ruler under a higher authority. Solomon was not the sovereign over this vassal state, but ruled by covenant under the higher authority, YHWH.

He didn't own the wealth, but sat over it to oversee what wealth the Sovereign brought to his treasures. Solomon wasn't the owner, he was the steward.

Sorry you missed this important bit of information.
thank you for that interesting bit of information. the first known use of that word was in 1807, so during Biblical times Solomon was known as a king.
and yes, he did rule under God's authority.
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