The vow of Mary and the Fathers of the Church

Lion King · #31 19th August 2011, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Thekla

The only way to "end it" for you ...

As for the other passages you mention, you can check the EOrthodox teachings on those matters.

What I do know is that in the translation of the passages under discussion here, translators have changed the meaning of the Greek words.

For example, in Luke 2:5, mnisteuw (engaged/betrothed) has been translated married, which would be gamew.

I was interested more along the lines of the Scriptures. I, like my brethrens, the Breans....

Just one verse or passage in the Scriptures will do.

PS.by the way which bible translation does as you claim?

Thekla · #32 19th August 2011, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Lion King

I was interested more along the lines of the Scriptures. I, like my brethrens, the Breans....

Just one verse or passage in the Scriptures will do.

PS.by the way which bible translation does as you claim?

Me, too

You can look up the passage (Luke 2:5); mnisteuw is translated as married which would be gamew. The word translated as wife, gyne, means actually woman.

Luke 2 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Oh, and in the Bereans passage, the translators translate "ostis" as the equivalent of "dioti ostis" -- look at every other translation of ostis in the NT. They only translate it this way one time !

Let the Scriptures say what they say

Lion King · #33 19th August 2011, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Philothei

Fine Lion King cause this thread is NOT about the scriptures but about the Fathers and what they contributed to the belief of the EV.

Where did they get their doctrines, because it wasn't from Scripture? Yeah, we all know Paul instructed us to keep the traditions handed down to us by the apostles, but it's pretty clear also that Paul only taught what was in the Scriptures, otherwise, the Bereans would have never believed.

Jesus Christ also taught what was in the Scriptures, and condemned oral tradition which had been passed down through generations. So, if their doctrines cannot be supported in any way whatsoever by Scripture, I don't see how any Christian can accept them.

MetanoiaHeart · #34 19th August 2011, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by washedagain

I am not going to go digging through your long quote. If you want me to do it, give me one.

Thanks.

Wow. The thread is about the Fathers of the Church and the EV of Mary. I quoted a Father of the Western Church (St. Jerome), and you won't bother to read it. Why are you on this thread then?

I'll quote it again to make it easy for you. The verses are indicated in parenthesis, if you are really that opposed to reading it. I'll even bold them for you.

"After the birth of Jesus," said the false teacher Helvidius in the 4th century, and likewise many others before and after him, "Mary entered into conjugal life with Joseph and had from him children, who are called in the Gospels the brothers and sisters of Christ." But the word "until" does not signify that Mary remained a virgin only until a certain time. The word "until" and words similar to it often signify eternity. In the Sacred Scripture it is said of Christ: In His days shall shine forth righteousness and an abundance of peace, until the moon be taken away (Ps. 71:7), but this does not mean that when there shall no longer be a moon at the end of the world, God's righteousness shall no longer be; precisely then, rather, will it triumph. And what does it mean when it says: For He must reign, until He hath put all enemies under His feet? (I Cor. 15:25). Is the Lord then to reign only for the time until His enemies shall be under His feet?! And David, in the fourth Psalm of the Ascents says: As the eyes of the handmaid look unto the hands of her mistress, so do our eyes look unto the Lord our God, until He take pity on us (Ps. 122:2). Thus, the Prophet will have his eyes toward the Lord until he obtains mercy, but having obtained it he will direct them to the earth? (Blessed Jerome, "On the Ever-Virginity of Blessed Mary.") The Saviour in the Gospel says to the Apostles (Matt. 28:20): Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Thus, after the end of the world the Lord will step away from His disciples, and then, when they shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel upon twelve thrones, they will not have the promised communion with the Lord? (Blessed Jerome, op. cit.)

Note that the Psalms are numbered differently; add one to the number.

Lion King · #35 19th August 2011, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Thekla

Me, too

You can look up the passage (Luke 2:5); mnisteuw is translated as married which would be gamew. The word translated as wife, gyne, means actually woman.

Luke 2 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Oh, and in the Bereans passage, the translators translate "ostis" as the equivalent of "dioti ostis" -- look at every other translation of ostis in the NT. They only translate it this way one time !

Let the Scriptures say what they say

I don't seem to get what you're actually trying to say here? I don't the word married anywhere.

Thekla · #36 19th August 2011, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by washedagain

I am not going to go digging through your long quote. If you want me to do it, give me one.

Thanks.

The quote cites Scriptures demonstrating the usage of "ews"; it's not that long.

washedagain · #37 19th August 2011, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by MetanoiaHeart

Wow. The thread is about the Fathers of the Church and the EV of Mary. I quoted a Father of the Western Church (St. Jerome), and you won't bother to read it. Why are you on this thread then?

I'll quote it again to make it easy for you. The verses are indicated in parenthesis, if you are really that opposed to reading it. I'll even bold them for you.

Note that the Psalms are numbered differently; add one to the number.

I never said I didn't read it. Why are you accusing me of not reading it?

Anyway,
In His days shall shine forth righteousness and an abundance of peace, until the moon be taken away (Ps. 71:7),

Yes, Jesus' righteousness will be an abundance of peace up to the point the moon is taken away.

We DON'T know what it will be like after the moon is taken away, it doesn't say.

For He must reign, until He hath put all enemies under His feet? (I Cor. 15:25).

Yep, the word of God says that he MUST reign all up to the point that he puts all enemies under His feet.

We DON'T KNOW what will happen after that. The word of God does not say.

: As the eyes of the handmaid look unto the hands of her mistress, so do our eyes look unto the Lord our God, until He take pity on us (Ps. 122:2).

Yes and? How are you gonna look upon Jesus after he takes pity on you? I venture a bit more so than just how a woman looks upon her slave. That's just me though.

Thekla · #38 19th August 2011, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Lion King

I don't seem to get what you're actually trying to say here? I don't the word married anywhere.

WashedAgain pointed out "espoused" means married. The Scriptures say in Greek "betrothed".

washedagain · #39 19th August 2011, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Thekla

WashedAgain pointed out "espoused" means married. The Scriptures say in Greek "betrothed".

So why do they translate it espoused if it means engaged?

Thekla · #40 19th August 2011, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by washedagain

So why do they translate it espoused if it means engaged?

I provided the link which gives the Greek and defines mnisteuw; I gave further support for the meaning of mnisteuw (Langenscheidt, Harper, Van der Pool - who uses Strong's). All these sources state mnisteuw means engaged.

You tell me why the translators substituted the meaning of "gamew" for the meaning of "mnisteuw".