A question for "strict TULIP" Reformed Christians

AMR · #11 22nd August 2011, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Joshua G.

I suppose the lingering question is does a 5 pter believe that prayer has effect on God's Will? I mean, I have heard the phrase used "He uses the prayer to save that person" but what does that mean?

As has been suggested in other replies, while God ordains all that happens, he also ordains the means, to that end, for example, your prayers, which are part of the ordained chain of events towards God's ultimate achievement of his ends.

Another lingering thought which is perhaps going back to the question itself (that is, I may have been premature in suggesting that my question was answered): If God determines outside of time that I was to pray for the salvation of Fred who, it turns out, was among the elect, would you equally say that it was part of his divine plan that I pray for the salvation of George who, it turns out, was not among the elect?

Again, there is nothing that happens in the universe that is outside the providential care and sovereign control of God. So even your prayers for those, whom you do not know are among the chosen elect, are part of the plan of God. Prayer is more than asking God for this or that, but it is also part of the relationship we have with God. And while your prayer may not, indeed cannot change God's mind, such prayers change you and are part of your walk of faith.

I guess what I am getting at is that if it was part of his divine plan that I pray for the elect and those who are not elect (because no one knows who is elect) then it seems the same as saying "everything that happens is part of his "pre" detemined plan and while that may be a right answer do you see how it might not be very helpful for those looking for answers to questions? It seems like the catch all answer "because it was pre determined" but never really actually answers the question of "why?"

The key here is the "why" bit in your post. What God has revealed about himself is contained in Holy Writ (special revelation) and the world around us (general revelation). It is beyond the bounds to attempt to peek behind the curtain when we have been given all that we need to know from the Bible and general revelation. In fact, we are admonished to tread carefully when attempting to look inside the mind of God, e.g., Deut. 29:29. God also gives us a hint along these lines in the Book of Job. There we find that God never directly answers the many questions posed to him. Instead, rather than being placed in the dock to give an account of Himself, God reminds his creatures of His majesty and greatness. As the prohet discovered when encountering a glimpse of the glory of God, he was struck with his own sense of inadequacy, So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts." (Isaiah 6:5)

I know this is not a satisfying answer to some, and we may never obtain or discern an answer on this side of the grave or even in our glory. The factis that not all questions we ask of him deserve a full answer from God. There are times that we must bow in obedience, reverence, and awe to His righteousness, resting confident that the Lord of all things really knows what He is doing, and that all that God does is to bring Him the glory that He justly deserves.

SOLICHRISTOS · #12 23rd August 2011, 02:28 AM

Hey Josh,

It's always tough to wrestle with Sovereignty and Predestination. I tend to dumb things down a bit for my own personal faith.

In a nutshell this is what I know; We are exhorted and encouraged to pray for our own selves and for the needs and salvation for others, in God's Word.

So, therefore I do. I believe that God hears our prayers and answers them according to His will.

Dave

Joshua G. · #13 23rd August 2011, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by SOLICHRISTOS

Hey Josh,

It's always tough to wrestle with Sovereignty and Predestination. I tend to dumb things down a bit for my own personal faith.

In a nutshell this is what I know; We are exhorted and encouraged to pray for our own selves and for the needs and salvation for others, in God's Word.

So, therefore I do. I believe that God hears our prayers and answers them according to His will.

Dave

Well, I can't argue with this! God bless guys!

Fletcher84 · #14 27th August 2011, 10:47 AM

All I know is that you receive a Call which eventually you must obey. And then God's Will be done through you, in which you have no credit, you yourself have no glory, only God has.

Everything is at it is and cannot be otherwise. You are merely part of the great web of God's Will, and this you must accept.

On Judgement Day, Christ may say to God the Father, "I know this man", or otherwise. This judgement, yes or no, you must accept.

The only way is to do what you are called to do.

There is no sentimentality. Christianity is as hard as marble, as tough as nails.

Foghorn · #15 18th May 2012, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Joshua G.

Greeting in Christ!

I have a question for those Calvinists who tend to the more strict view of TULIP (I suppose of the Orthodox Presbetyrian Church brand or the like). I understand that there is a lot of variation under the Presbyterian Umbrella which is why I am being so specific.

If you are not of that brand of Calvinism, but feel you understand that brand well and feel you can give a well-balanced fair answer from THAT specific POV (not your own) then by all means, go for it!

Please understand that I am not here to challenge but only to understand. If my questions sound trollish or debative it is only to press for understanding, NOT to convince you that you are wrong, unreasonable or the like.

SO here it goes:

My understanding is that a fundamental concept is that God is sovereign for the TULIP Calvinist and that to affront the doctrine of predestination (that is that God chooses not to save some to show that He is Just and saves others to express His perfect love, holding Justice and Love in a perfect balance) is to affront his sovereignty.

If this is correct, it would stand to (my) reason (although I am not very well informed as to all of the ins and outs of Calvinist theology, which is why I am here) that to pray that another individual be saved/come to Christ, while understandable and perhaps even pastorally acceptable given people's feelings, is not a perfect prayer because it fundamentally assumes that we can or even should do anything to affect the sovereign will of God. That is, Person A is either willed by God to be among the elect or not and we should never hope that it could ever go differently than that.

Is that a correct assumption? If not, how is such a prayer theologically tenable under your doctrine? I can understand a strict Calvinist praying that he or she do the best to present the Gospel to Person A so that God's Will may be done (understanding full well that Person A may not be among the elect, but since that is not for us to know, we need to do our best), but I can't understand (yet) how, under the strict Calvinist system, God be asked to please consider Person A to be among the elect when God has already either destined him or her to be elected or not.

Thank you so much for your time, charity and consideration! And please understand that I have no greater agenda behind this question. I was simply having a conversation with a friend who was very familiar with strict Calvinism and when I asked this question, he wasn't sure how praying for someone's salvation fit into a model that otherwise seems to be very consistent so I thought I would come here and ask!

Josh

Praying to God is for our benefit. Praying for the lost comes from a burden in one's heart, a burden for the lost. And, why wouldn't (a believer) anyone not want to share your thoughts, feeling and communication with the Lord?

Jesus prayed.

Eddie L · #16 18th May 2012, 08:59 PM

Joshua,

To me, prayer makes less sense in a non-Calvinist view than the Calvinist view. If God has done all He's going to and leaves the rest to a libertarian free will, what in the world is left to pray for? It's like asking God to do something He's dead set against doing.

In our view of God, He's the only hope anyone has. Our prayer isn't expected to change His sovereign will, but to express our dependence on it and to become a part of it.

Eddie L · #17 18th May 2012, 09:02 PM

It seems to me that prayer for salvation makes far less sense in a non-Calvinist view than within it. If God has decided to leave salvation up to a libertarian choice, what is left to ask Him for? To pray for someone's salvation seems to be begging God to violate creation's prime directive.

In Calvinism, praying for salvation makes sense because God is the only hope anyone has. I am not praying to change God's sovereign will. I am expressing my utter dependence upon it, and hoping that my prayers are a part of it.

Foghorn · #18 18th May 2012, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie L

Joshua,

To me, prayer makes less sense in a non-Calvinist view than the Calvinist view. If God has done all He's going to and leaves the rest to a libertarian free will, what in the world is left to pray for?

That's right, and why would God try and save someone against their will?

So much for prevenient grace also.

Foghorn · #19 18th May 2012, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie L

It seems to me that prayer for salvation makes far less sense in a non-Calvinist view than within it. If God has decided to leave salvation up to a libertarian choice, what is left to ask Him for? To pray for someone's salvation seems to be begging God to violate creation's prime directive.

In Calvinism, praying for salvation makes sense because God is the only hope anyone has. I am not praying to change God's sovereign will. I am expressing my utter dependence upon it, and hoping that my prayers are a part of it.

Praying to God is also one desire of the new heart.

Clare73 · #20 12th June 2012, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Joshua G.

Greeting in Christ!

I have a question for those Calvinists who tend to the more strict view of TULIP (I suppose of the Orthodox Presbetyrian Church brand or the like). I understand that there is a lot of variation under the Presbyterian Umbrella which is why I am being so specific.

If you are not of that brand of Calvinism, but feel you understand that brand well and feel you can give a well-balanced fair answer from THAT specific POV (not your own) then by all means, go for it!

Please understand that I am not here to challenge but only to understand. If my questions sound trollish or debative it is only to press for understanding, NOT to convince you that you are wrong, unreasonable or the like.

SO here it goes:

My understanding is that a fundamental concept is that God is sovereign for the TULIP Calvinist and that to affront the doctrine of predestination (that is that God chooses not to save some to show that He is Just and saves others to express His perfect love, holding Justice and Love in a perfect balance) is to affront his sovereignty.

If this is correct, it would stand to (my) reason (although I am not very well informed as to all of the ins and outs of Calvinist theology, which is why I am here) that to pray that another individual be saved/come to Christ, while understandable and perhaps even pastorally acceptable given people's feelings, is not a perfect prayer because it fundamentally assumes that we can or even should do anything to affect the sovereign will of God. That is, Person A is either willed by God to be among the elect or not and we should never hope that it could ever go differently than that.

Is that a correct assumption? If not, how is such a prayer theologically tenable under your doctrine? I can understand a strict Calvinist praying that he or she do the best to present the Gospel to Person A so that God's Will may be done (understanding full well that Person A may not be among the elect, but since that is not for us to know, we need to do our best), but I can't understand (yet) how, under the strict Calvinist system, God be asked to please consider Person A to be among the elect when God has already either destined him or her to be elected or not.

Thank you so much for your time, charity and consideration! And please understand that I have no greater agenda behind this question. I was simply having a conversation with a friend who was very familiar with strict Calvinism and when I asked this question, he wasn't sure how praying for someone's salvation fit into a model that otherwise seems to be very consistent so I thought I would come here and ask!

Josh

Hi, Josh,

The answer to your question involves several prinicples:

1) God is absolutely sovereign, not just in salvation (election), but in everything. Nothing happens anywhere that he has not willed, not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from his will.

2) The Word of God instructs us to pray, and to pray unceasingly for what we desire from God.

3) Some things can be grasped only from the inside of faith, they cannot be grasped from the outside of faith.

4) In the operation of the Holy Spirit in those of saving faith, divine truth is not always what can be explained in human logic, but is what the Holy Spirit works in the heart.

In light of these principles, let me share how it works with me.
If my heart is moved to pray for God's work in the heart of someone to bring them to saving faith, I so pray, in full agreement that not my will but God's will be done. It matters not to me that I can't logically defend what the Holy Spirit works in my heart to perform. It matters only that I express my heart to the Father and then leave it in his hands. I don't have to understand it to trust it all with him.

Any questions regarding my practice hopefully will be answered in the four principles above.

Hope this was helpful,
Clare